Tuesday, August 9, 2016

RS vs. Fiber in Real Food

A funny little abstract to a science article has been going around lately: Effects of total fibre or resistant starch-rich diets within lifestyle intervention in obese prediabetic adults.

It's generally accompanied with the admonishment that "fiber" is "better" than RS. Well, I finally got hold of the full-text, all is not as it seems!

The conclusion, as presented in the abstract:

At the end of the study, RS-rich diet failed to affect glycaemic control in prediabetic obese individuals in contrast to the regular fibre-rich diet, which indicated that fibre profile could be an important determinant of the effect of dietary intervention.

Post moved to www.potatohack.com

58 comments:

  1. Tim, An alternative doctor has prescribed cholestyramine to deal with residual effects of Lyme. It does this by binding with bile acid

    What effect do you think this will have on my gut bugs?

    Am trying to decide if it is worth it.

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    1. What are your "residual effects?" No idea if it will work or be worth it. Oat bran also binds with bile acids, just saying. http://www.nature.com/ejcn/journal/v61/n8/full/1602607a.html

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    2. No, of course you can't tell me if it would be worth it.

      But, what I wanted to know is if binding with bile acids would in any way mess with my gut bugs. (I refused antibiotics and took Several different herbal protocols over the course of a year and improved enormously) so if binding with bile acids is all that the colestyramine does, then I am assuming I don't have to worry about my gut bugs as long as I continue with all my prebiotic foods.

      And actually, my gut feeling is that beween the time the blood tests were taken that showed the switched on gene, and the time I actually got to see this doctor again (several months), eating either c&c potatoes, oatmeal, oat bran, or legumes at every meal my residual symptoms seemed to be improving. but since those symptoms are mental sharpness and I am 73 it is difficult to evaluate...

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    3. I should not think it would mess with your gut bacteria tremendously. Oat bran is one of the gut friendliest foods on the planet, and also binds bile acids.

      Has your doctor successfully switched this gene off in anyone using his protocol?

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    4. Apparently so. One person I know of,a much younger woman, had incapacitating brain function. Way worse than me and is now pretty much normal. According to the doc, only about 20% of people have th gene that gets switched on and perpetuates inflammation. Am not clear on the details...

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    5. I see. Any info on this gene you can give us?

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    6. I have several pages of reports from the tests, but honestly cannot sort them out even though he explained it all at the office visit, I didn't take good enough notes.

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    7. I don't suppose the doctor mentioned methylation? Since working on mine (gene related - confirmed via 23andme) - my digestion is really moving up a notch, cognitive function much better and no more energy dips. Obviously I still think the fibres/ RS are vital.

      If this hasn't been mentioned or just muddies the water - please ignore, but thought I'd mention - just in case.

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  2. elliebelly, I have read that many with Lyme are taking Low Dose Naltrexone. Just a thought.

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  3. Thanks, Navillus. Will keep that in mind. But since I am already working with this Doc and have done extensive testing showing Lyme is all gone now but that I have a certain gene that was switched on by the infection and this is his protocol for that situation, I want to follow it.... if the downside of the cholestyremine is not too bad. If not then I will definitely look further into the Naltrexone.

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    1. How did they determine this gene is switched on?

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    2. Special (read costly, not covered by insurance ) blood tests

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  4. So, you basically don't see evidence for the anti-grain mindset? I'm thinking of the Perfect Health Diet, which incorporates plenty of starchy vegetables, but zero grains.

    Debbie

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  5. None at all. Refined grain products are no good, ie. white flour, but whole grains are a perfect delivery system for not only micronutrients, but also gut-friendly RS, fiber, and other things needed for a healthy gut flora.

    Probably 90% of grains are consumed as refined, enriched snacks and breads that are more cake-like than bread-like. Having a grain-free diet in this regard is an improvement, but a shift to whole-grains would be even better, in my opinion.

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    1. Happy to report, my kids are now eating day old rye bread. It took a month of making rye bread every day. Every day I'd tweak the recipe. Finally I got a recipe that they enjoy. Now they grab it without thinking.

      I got organic rye flour from the prairies. I grind it fresh. So, 100% whole rye, with no additives. Then add sourdough (also 100% rye), salt, water, and a few herbs and spices like carraway. I let the sourdough do its pre-digestive magic for 12 hours. Then... oh, the heresy. I microwave it on a low temperature setting. I get a light fluffy rye loaf, loaded with fiber, flavor, and texture. Anyone who's ever tried making rye, knows how finicky it is to make rye that isn't a brick.

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    2. That sounds great. What do you cook it in, in the microwave? A glass bread pan? You say you "add sourdough," is this a starter you keep going in the fridge?

      I had a nice sourdough starter going all last winter, and left it unattended too long and it turned bad on me. Where did you get the starter?

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    3. Tim, I don't bother with the fridge. I have a glass quart jar. Every day I bake bread, so I take some out, and add flour and water right away. It doubles in size in about 4 hours. I just keep the jar on the counter, with some cheesecloth over it to keep the flies out.

      Yes, I cook it in the microwave, on the "medium low" setting. And yes, I use a glass bread pan. Also ceramic. These days I use a glass pie pan for that circular shape.

      It stays soft and moist even days later. Not the dry crumbly brick everyone thinks of when they have rye bread.

      A Swedish friend said it was like "eating perfume". It is aromatic, in a good way.

      I got the rye grain from the prairies, not the flour. I grind the grain into flour, as needed.

      It takes about 5-8 days starting from scratch to create the sourdough starter. The little critters are present in the air and the grain itself.

      I have lots of rye grain, so I figured it was time to combine your work on Resistant Starch with Richard and Duck Dodgers work on flour enrichment, and feed my family something healthy. So far, the rye bread is super high in fiber. I'd love to get it tested.

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    4. rye sourdough starter works well to get any other type of sourdough going, wheat, etc. I used my rye sourdough starter to get a tef culture going. Injera bread and rye bread have a very similar acidity profile.

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    5. Wow, sounds like you really have this figured out! Good job. Here's a little tidbit for you...serve your bread with jam or berries. The tannins in the berries appear to make some of the starches in rye bread resistant to digestion, and deliver them to the gut where they serve as prebiotics. Read more: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23365108

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    6. Great read Tim...Mycroft thank you so much for sharing your sourdough rye making knowledge. I've recently been eating local artisan sourdoughs and have been amazed at how well my gut seems to handle them. But they are pricey and having growing up on my mom's freshly ground flour she used to make hearty breads, I wanted to learn to do it on my own.

      I went to a sourdough bread making class last night and it was really an eye opener. The starters that the teacher had were so aromatic...never smelled sourdough like that before. It stayed with the little loaves we made and the taste was incredible. He gave us some starter but I want to capture and make my own as well and I'm blessed that there is a local mill that has fresh ground flour and grain that from what I've been reading is full of all of the good stuff. Looking forward to perfecting my recipe and having my own tasty bread.

      Tim - funny thing I've been putting fresh berries and berry jam on the sourdough (and some butter, don't tell anyone!) so I had no idea that this was a good thing..just tasted good and seemed to make my guy very hapy.

      It would be great if you could do a post sometime just about sourdough...I know I'd love to hear more details on Mycroft's microwave rye bread mastery. :)

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    7. EDR, another thing: don't put garlic in it. Sourdough can tolerate pepper and many other herbs and spices, but garlic kills it dead. I haven't tried onions yet. That is an experiment for another day. Also, the most important factor to get a good loaf, is the amount of water. Experiment with that.

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    8. Tim, thanks. Did you mean to put berries in the dough and bake it, or did you mean to put jam on top after it is baked?

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    9. The starch in rye will auto-retrograde into RS3, so the berries will be a nice addition, but the whole grain rye should have plenty of fiber and RS3. I'd love to get a loaf tested for fiber content; how hard is that? A friend from Finland described girlhood on the farm, before electricity. They'd bake rye bread, then put it in the rafters and it would last through winter.

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    10. I meant to eat the bread with some jam or berries. Apparently this little tweak makes bread even healthier, lol. Funny how some old standards, ie. bread and jam, are actually the best way to eat a certain food. But you are correct, not needed but if you are looking for an excuse to eat some jam, this is it.

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    11. Thanks Tim. Jam sounds good. The flavor profile of Rye works well with Jam, honey and butter... even mayonaisse. This rye bread turned my kids into mayonaisse lovers. :)

      Also, you are onto something with adding berries to the dough itself. If you want a soft and fluffy loaf, the collapse problem is real. I found no way to solve it without adding fruit to give structure. Also, I put a tiny bit of cayenne pepper; it gives it a bit of kick that noone can really put their finger on.

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    12. Mycroft, since you mentioned honey ... how are your bees doing this season? Are you still planning on writing a book?

      Barney

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    13. Hi Barney. I've got 35,000 words of notes for the honeybee book, but I'm carefully considering if I have anything new to say, or if I have a better way of saying it.

      Beekeeping is very seasonal. I was blessed with a wild swarm that moved into my hive on its own. I caught a few other swarms. One is doing well, the other is dwindling. I had a source for treatment free queens, but she was robbed and that set everything behind schedule; might lose my third swarm altogether. My attempt to merge the third swarm with a fourth swarm didn't work. If I get a fifth swarm, I'll try to merge again, this time I'll lock them in the hive together for 3 days before letting them out.

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    14. Awesome! There is lots left to say on the subject. Barney and I are both new "beeks." We both are disgruntled that all of the reference books for backyard small-timers comes from Big Honey industry methods. There needs to be a renaissance of beekeeping that focuses on the bees and not honey production. The practice of feeding bees high-fructose corn syrup and sugar water is crazy and probably leads to verroa mites and colony collapse. I've been completely unimpressed with every bee book I've read.

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    15. When Duck Dodgers came out with the stuff on vitamin B enrichment, I was gobsmacked; I think it applies to the way everyone is keeping bees too. In my area, all the backyard beeks have to feed year round, to keep up with the "big boys" who are flooding us out. This year I haven't fed. I'm going with swarms only. Let's see if they can overwinter. I'll be discussing the use of commensal bugs in the beehive. You know how we spray chemicals to prevent and stop forest fires? That might explain how even the wild bees have lost their commensal protective bugs. Not talking gut bugs here (Michael Bush has covered that) but the phoretic assistants.

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    16. Thanks for the encouragement Tim, I'll keep plugging away.

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    17. It will probably read like a horror novel. Zombies, vampires, chemical warfare, thalidomide babies, the works. (Yes, I'm talking about the bees)

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    18. LOL. That will be a horror novel. Beekeepers in my area (USDA Zone 7), feed supplemental sugar the entire first year for hives started with a package. They seem more concerned with saving that $100 investment than the overall health of the hive. We had one swarm hive and it's healthy and strong and required no supplemental feeding. Package hive is still getting sugar. Hobby keepers can afford to be selective when starting a new hive. No captured swarm, no new hive, no big deal. I think keepers only looking at the financial side make bad decisions and work the bees too hard.

      Barney

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  6. "Fiber is better than RS", the above study, seems to me is so poorly done as to prove nothing. Not controlled: Fats, RS values, Statins, overlap of unknown quantities and types of RS in the Fiber-only group.
    I would use this study to wrap and scrap vegetable peelings.

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    1. Haha, exactly! Which is why I try to never comment on a paper until I see it's full text. Abstracts can be very misleading, often on purpose. Sometimes when you finally see the entire paper, all you can do is shake your head and try to read between the lines.

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  7. Probably not freshly ground flour etc. But how about RS/retrograding to RS3 in 100% whole grain rye crisp bread,like Wasa or Finncrisp?

    /L

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    1. I think Tim wrote earlier than starch in bread retrogrades into massive amounts of RS3. So Rye should be included in that. Is there some way to send it in to a lab and have a test done?

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    2. It's expensive! Medallion labs does it. You'd need two:

      Total fiber ($440): http://www.medallionlabs.com/TestLibrary/Test2.aspx?tid=2137&id=175

      Total RS ($150): http://www.medallionlabs.com/TestLibrary/Test2.aspx?tid=2257&id=125

      Or just smugly eat your tasty bread with a bit of jam, honey, and butter and know that it's very, very good for you.

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  8. Thanks Tim. $600 for a complete report is reasonable, it is the kind of thing I'd want to do just once.

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    1. You should do one of those crowd-funding projects (IndieGoGo or KickStarter) to test a couple variations of a high fiber/RS rye bread, and give the recipes as rewards for donating. I'd pitch in! I'll even write it up in a blog post so everyone can share it around on social media.

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  9. Dear Tim, I quickly read/scanned the article. Printed to read better later. Overall, they still didn't raise their fiber intake by much, did they? RS fraction in the RS group doubled, but that's still not much. I wonder how blood sugars/insulin would look with either less carbs overall or for the RS group, no cooked, hot pasta/potatoes/rice.

    I don't know. It will be hard for any study to replicate real life. When people's metabolic processes are busted up, it takes doing one intervention for a time, then as a new plateau is reached, it will take another. Till they finally hit a good homeostasis. When one trains intensely for a sport, they don't do the same thing every day for years and years. They have to change it up to take it to a new level.

    But I'm glad they're trying real food! The lipids improved and they lost weight! The blood sugars/insulin can't be far behind. I'd want to see those diet logs, talk with the patients, explain the "leftover" food idea, still steer them away from any processed forms of RS. And so on.

    Terri

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    1. Thanks for reading. I thought the research was great in that it just used a small intervention that showed good results. In a lot of these type studies, they normalize the fiber intake to ~35g/day, not realizing that hardly anyone eats that much fiber in real life.

      Just imagine if they had included a third arm based on what we have been saying around here for so long...cooked and cooled starches and some heavy-hitter RS sources like dried green plantains and a good dose of tannin-rich food with every meal.

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  10. I have found a source of Jerusalem Artichokes, I have never been able to find them before and am surprised as they are just like taters! I know they make people fart apparently but what would happen if I boiled them up and ate them like a potato hack for 2 days? Google says they lower blood sugar and are indigestible, so they would be perfect, but then I've not heard of anyone doing this - why? Is it a bad idea?

    Rose

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    1. I have never had a J. artichoke, so can't remark, but I have heard many people say they make you gassy. Give it a try. They should be "hack worthy."

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  11. Or alternatively.. boil up with asparagus and leeks in a stock based soup and then blend until creamy and consume soup over a few days. Maybe this is safer.

    Rose

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  12. I am not sure where to ask this question so will just add it here.

    Tim, what are your thoughts on this fiber product (along with RPS and fiber from food):

    https://www.nutracleanse.biz/product/1-bag-1-month-supply/

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    1. I think it looks great!

      Flax Seed
      Psyllium Husk
      Dandelion Root Powder
      Burdock Root Powder
      Fenugreek Seed Powder

      A tad expensive at $34 for a month supply, but the 15g of fiber daily is really good and has some very unique ingredients (dandelion and burdock roots) that might be hard to find elsewhere. If it were me, I'd get a bag of this and make it last 2-3 months by using it alongside other fibers and real food.

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    2. Thanks! Great idea about getting it to last longer and making it more economical. Recipes on the website show that you can add it to hot cereal so I could do it in my kefir smoothie or in oat bran cereal. Thanks so much!

      gina

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    3. For a ready-made mix, it's really good. I'd worry they load it with the cheaper ingredients like p husk and flax, lol. Ya just can't trust anybody these days. Ya pays yer money and ya takes yer chances.

      This mix would be easily replicated with a bit of digging.

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    4. Look into Frontier or Starwest Botanical (organic) bulk for these ingredients. In my experience, they are not only very fresh, but also inexpensive relative to their counterparts once you account for quantity.

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    5. Thanks so much!

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  13. Hello there,

    I just discovered this website in my quest to heal my gut dysbiosis, I am wondering if there is a "general-guidelines" post anywhere that teaches us the basics of pro&prebiotics/fiber? It is very hard for a layman such as myself to comprehend the large amount of information presented in these boards.
    I am confused on things such as "RS2 raw potato starch", wether it is a bad or a good thing, I read conflicting opinions about this on various forums.

    Also thank you for all the information you provide on your website, me and all other people in their quest to health greatly appreciate these type of boards.

    With regards,
    Yannel from Holland

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    1. If I've learned one thing over the last couple years, it's that everyone is different and respondes differently to the various interventions of fiber and probiotics. I wrote a 5 part series on fiber:

      Part 1 here: http://vegetablepharm.blogspot.com/2014/12/in-search-of-perfect-fiber-part.html

      My focus is more on prevention and maintenance of a healthy gut. Once dysbiosis occurs, it's a long road to healing. Don't be afraid to try all sorts of things. Let us know what's wrong, maybe someone here can offer advice!

      Tot ziens,
      Tim

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    2. Hi,

      Thank you for your reply Tim! :)

      My current problems are very low energy levels, leaky gut symptoms, I have also got a history of very severe IBS-C which I solved about a year ago for 80% by a combo of big dosis kefir (1Liter/day) and L-Glutamine.

      I am wondering about how exactly you prepare your potatoes for RS3 content?
      Should I remove the skin? And is it okay to slice them?
      Currently I am removing the skin and slicing them, then steaming them, and then cooling them. I haven't noticed anything from doing it like this yet. I have very small amount of stool every day. I eat around 3 lbs cooked vegetables a day. This makes me wonder, am I doing something wrong with trying to make RS3?
      These are test results I had gotten from a few months ago: https://i.gyazo.com/a774e0deac8ffadabeebd9840a63c570.png

      I have been eating a lot of fermented foods for about a year already, but have not been eating Resistant Starch/prebiotics. I think RS/prebiotics might be the missing piece of the puzzle to improve my health.

      I recently noticed that my energy improves temporarily when eating onions, there is this warmth/calmness that goes through my body. I am in pursuit of this feeling of wellness.

      I am looking to create a blend of some fibers to add to my diet. I thought of starting with a very small amount of inulin + acacia fiber + psyllium + raw potato starch.

      I am confused though, is raw potato starch acceptable in any amount? Does it have to be mixed during a meal with RS3 and other fibers?
      When I look at this picture from the animal pharm board: https://i.gyazo.com/5438ab685c94a356b5b615b31315f628.png
      I am afraid to add any RS2 raw potato starch to my diet. Were these problems only with people who didn't balance it out properly? Do you think it is ok to have like a blend of 1/2 inulin tablespooon + 1/2 acacia gum tablespoon + 1/2 psyllium tablespoon + 1/2 raw potato starch tablespoon?

      With best regards,
      Yannel

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  14. Interesting link to a study, just released today by examine.com - speaks to the role of gut and SCFAs, resistant starch, prebiotics and something new to me - proprionate as reducing appetite: (speaking of satiety - I have recently discovered that lentils kill my appetite after only a few bites!)

    http://examine.com/nutrition/propionate-ally-against-overeating/

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  15. New Diet Taps into Pioneering Idea to Help Dieters Get Rid Of 15 Pounds within Only 21 Days!

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