Thursday, August 6, 2015

Raw Potato Starch Attacked!

I have made it my sole purpose in life to stick up for the tiny little spheres of goodness that are raw potato starch. Just yesterday, the blogger behind The Paleo Mom blog went on a rampage against my beloved RPS, saying things like:


Now, a new contender is here for the superfood crown: resistant starch, especially in the form of raw potato starch. If you haven’t encountered enthusiastic advice to add potato starch (just stirred into a glass of cool water, yum?!) to your diet in order to treat all manner of ills, you probably will soon!


Sarah Ballantyne, PhD, suggests that people have boosted RPS to superfood status, and recommend eating it to the exclusion of all other foods!

Unfortunately, the way potato starch supplementation is currently touted, as a gut microbiome-enhancing substitute for eating a variety of vegetables and fruit, doesn’t look like a strategy that lives up to the hype.


And even has a nice little cartoon to drive the point home!


Post moved to potatohack.com

130 comments:

  1. I'm not crazy about her, for what it's worth. She's made a career out her paleo movement fame, and fame sort of makes people self-righteous know-it-alls at times.

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    1. I couldn't agree with you more.
      Jo tB

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    2. This Anon is D. for Debbie

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  2. Cooked potatoes don't have any RS?

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    1. Cooking potato will unwind the amylose structure (getting rid of most of your RS2). Cooling it will reform that RS2 as RS3, but in significantly reduced amounts. So, from the potato starch tab on this site.....
      To recap:

      1 medium potato, tennis ball sized, 150g or so, can be looked at like this in terms of resistant starch:

      Raw - 22g
      Cooked - .25g
      Cooled - 3.5g
      Re-heated - 4g
      Re-cooled - 4.5g
      Re-re-heated - 5g
      Re-re-cooled - 5.5g
      Re-re-re-heated - 6g

      You started off with 22 gm of RS (in the form of RS2) and end up with 6gm of RS (in the form of RS3)

      Delete
  3. Only cooked and COOLED. And I don't know about 2 & 3.....

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  4. I have a request to all the folks posting as Anons. Can ya'll sign with initials or nicknames, please? This is a friendly place, no need to be shy.

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  5. I don't give a crap about a what a "paleo" blogger has to say. Really, NADA!

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  6. As Sara states: Fiber in general has been linked to reduced risk of diabetes, heart disease, and multiple cancers. It reduces inflammation, regulates hormones, and helps protect against many gut pathologies.

    Good if your gut flora is in top notch condition, but what if you already have diabetes, etc.? Most people who start using RPS aren't, they have some issue or another. I have noticed, reading on the internet, people who I thought were super healthy and not a worry in the world, have gut issues and are not as healthy as they seem.

    I know a diabetic lady who recently had a heart attack and is a super fan of RPS to the exclusion of everything else. What brought on her heart attack? She has been eating paleo for the last 3 years. Did the RPS exacerbate her condition?

    I think Sara's flaw is in making generalizations into gospel law. She is falling into the same trap that the diet world has done for years. If you do this, then that will be the result. But for 99% of the people it doesn't work that way.

    I think I'm a prime example. I tried RPS, if didn't help, in fact my sugar levels went haywire. So according to the gospel law, I'm a failure. I don't fit the picture. Then they start trying to bring me around to THEIR way of thinking because they had success. Just have to keep at it. Just more and more of the same in the hope that the result will be different. What they don't do is realise that there may be some other factor at play. they don't try to figure out what that other factor may be.

    Gees, I'm getting philosophical in my old age!

    Jo tB

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    1. That all sounds like the McDougallers. People are falling apart from that vegan diet and they are being encouraged to keep on going. Too many cults around. People really need to get out more.

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  7. What bothered me about her post - and blog/podcast, etc. - is that it's part of a business enterprise that by definition exists to make money; she has a family and must make a living from these entities, which now include a consulting practice, books, etc. So the blog and podcast has to attract clients and customers. It's just too easy in these situations to slide into sensationalist and slanted language - and that's being generous. She's able to attract lots of people this way - and they need help, are trusting her every word. And that's a problem when every word isn't at least well thought out and a genuine attempt at the truth as she sees it.

    D.

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  8. I notice she isn't addressing Tim's comments at all, at least not yet.

    What I would like to hear is who these people recommending potato starch *to the exclusion of* rather than alongside other fibres are.

    I'm afraid Paleo Mom reminds me of that other somewhat sensational "health" blogger, Sarah the Healthy Home Economist. So focussed on building their little empires that due consideration of the topic du jour goes out the window.

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  9. I think it's clear most people will eat their potatoes and other tubers hot not cold 99% of the time. So if the RS from a cooked spud is on the order of 0.25g then how much would you have to eat in terms of calories or carb's per day to get what you could easily supplement with RPS without the added calories/carbs? I'm not saying to skip eating spuds, but especially for people who may be dieting or seeking ongoing intake restriction to admin their aging body degradation ;-)... ???
    On a body building discussion forum I frequent there are lots of people who eat a carb cycling diet where they go nearly carb free for from 3-6 days with one day, or one meal, which is high carb (ie, carb "re-feeds). While this works well for some people to lower body fat, it often ends up being a low fiber/probiotic diet. I have been recommending to those people to supplement RPS as I think that is a perfect use of it. Green leafy veggies are great, healthy n all, but where are they gonna get any appreciable amount of soluble fiber???

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    1. sorry, typos in there. (probiotics <-> prebiotics)

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    2. My thought is since RPS is so cheap and convenient/easy why would you NOT supplement at least a small amount of it... if it is well tolerated by you? All upside and no downside that I can see.

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    3. Hey, Brad - My thoughts, too. I wish that the scientific research would switch to figuring out exactly how much butyrate and other fermentation byproducts a human needs, and then figure out how much of a deficit different diets produce.

      We could then "dose up" with a suitable fiber source congruent with our gut bacteria.

      Over at the blog post that started this, a lady, Rhonda Witwer, who works where they make Hi-Maize left a good comment. We really need to start looking at Hi-Maize a bit closer, the only consumer source I know of is King Arthur flour, but not sure that's the same Hi-Maize used in all the studies. Her comment:

      "You have raised some interesting questions, but have ignored the majority of the published science on resistant starch. The benefits were demonstrated by feeding people higher quantities of resistant starch by supplementing their diet with (in the vast majority of >100 clinical studies) RS2 resistant starch from high amylose corn. The higher quantities utilized in the studies cannot be obtained from food sources without unreasonable effort and over-consumption of beans and bananas (or reverting to a historical African diet). For instance, there are 9 clinical studies showing improved insulin sensitivity (biomarker for the development of type 2 diabetes) with 15-100 grams of RS2 resistant starch from high amylose corn/day, while the only study that used food sources (15 grams of RS/day) found no effect at all.

      You cannot promise the benefits of resistant starch demonstrated with supplemented quantities to much lower quantities of resistant starch obtained with foods.

      There is so much that we do not know about cancer generation and development in the colon. Your selective analysis of mostly animal studies in an area with great unknowns to criticize resistant starch supplementation is unjustified. And, if you’re going to tackle the cancer issue, why didn’t you talk about CAPP1 and CAPP2, the landmark cancer prevention clinical trials with resistant starch? (They used lower quantities of resistant starch and found no effect, although did show prevention with aspirin.)"

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    4. Less than $3 per pound.

      http://www.amazon.com/Hi-Maize-Resistant-Starch-Pound-Bag/dp/B009939UI2/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1438984372&sr=8-1&keywords=Hi+maize

      I remember being a newbie to all of this. It was half-baked posts like those that scared me. It really is a disservice

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    5. Maybe I'm the only one who's tried King Arthur Hi-Maize corn starch. The stuff definitely works and is very potent. I would rank it right up there with BRM PS and is actually superior to BRM Tapioca Starch and Barry Farm's Plantain starch. I still have a few boxes lying around and I'll try some again pretty soon.

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    6. I probably unfairly refused to talk much about Hi-Maize early on. It is sold as a "baking item" intended for people to use as a flour replacement. I have my doubts that Hi-Maize retains its RS when cooked with, just as potato starch. But the makers seem to push it for this purpose.

      My other concern with Hi-Maize, as from King Arthur Flour Co., is that I am not sure what type of Hi-Maize you are actually buying. Hi-Maize is made in numerous formulations, all with varying amounts of RS.

      I am planning a blog post of Hi-Maize as soon as I collect some data. I think that Hi-Maize is a good alternative to any other supplement you can think of.

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    7. The Hi-maize that King Arthur and Honeyville Grain sells is actually Hi-maize 260, from Ingredion. It is the same ingredient that has 70+ published clinical trials of all kinds. It is made from corn naturally high in amylose (70-80% amylose versus 20-30% amylose in regular corn), which changes its structure within the starch granule. It really does keep its resistance after it has been baked or extruded into pasta. Harsher processing gelatinizes it or cooks it out, losing the resistant starch, but baking doesn't degrade it at all. Lots of studies have shown that it is still resistant under these kinds of conditions. For instance, the most recent two clinicals showing improved insulin sensitivity utilized it baked into snack crackers (Barbara Gower's study at the Univ of Alabama Birmingham) and bagels (Sarah Dainty's thesis at Univ of Guelph). I may even be able to find an analytical study showing it retains birefringence after cooking (demonstrating that the granular structure of the starch is retained) if I had to.

      Being able to bake with Hi-maize resistant starch makes it easier to use. I have baked it into Christmas cookies, blueberry cake, pancakes, muffins, and every other conceivable type of baked good for more than a decade. It's just another way to make foods better. I do not use these foods as my primary source of resistant starch - but when I want to indulge occasionally or bring coffee cake to the church or feed my daughter's friends pancakes after they sleep over, it's nice to know that they're getting a healthy dose of RS (even if they don't know it).

      I built www.resistantstarch.us to try to explain all the scientific studies and benefits of resistant starch. There are a few on potato starch, and now a couple on banana starch, but the vast majority have used RS2 resistant corn starch since the 1990's. It has been an amazing and developing story over the past decade. It has been fun and is still fun. I look forward to interacting with you on it.

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    8. Hi Rhonda - Thanks for dropping in. Hi-Maize 260 is about 50% RS by weight, correct? I had always wondered about the claims that it remains after cooking, thanks for clarifying.

      You are right about the extensive usage of Hi-Maize in the research papers, probably 80% of all RS studies use Hi-Maize in some fashion. Mostly, I think, because it is a known quantity.

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    9. Hi Rhonda, wow, so high amylose corn starch (RS2) will retain its RS2 even after being cooked? All of it or a great majority of it? Maybe I should just put it in my piping hot cup of coffee. That means its behaving differently from other RS2s but then again it's synthetic. Yes, I believe the infamous RS suppositories contain Hi-Maize RS2.

      Now, what's the consensus here on Resistant Maltodextrin, another artificial product sourced from corn. My understanding is it's oligosaccharides and is labeled "GRAS" by the FDA. One trial in 2008 where it behaved a lot like RS2 (high stool volume, increased Bifido population, and enhanced butyrate formation from SCFA, etc.)

      http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18689571

      There is Fibersol 2 which was invented by a Japanese company and has since been sold to Archer Daniels Midland.

      http://www.fibersol.com/products/fibersol-2/faqs/

      It too seems resist degradation. See here:

      "Fibersol®-2 is made using both heat and acid. It is inherently stable to both, and does not lose fiber content during processing or storage. Thus, it is compatible to ALL processing conditions, distribution conditions, and shelf-life expectations."

      And then they reduced the gas-inducing aspect of RS by curbing fermentation:

      "Nutritionally Fibersol®-2 is not totally fermented in the colon thus allowing for slow development and dissipation of developed acid and gas."

      Leaving that gas-inducing aspect of RS in would not go over too well when eating brownies and oatmeal cookies.

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    10. Hi Spanish - I don't believe Hi-Maize is synthetic at all, just specially bred corn that is high in amylose.

      I've seen numerous papers that list the "gelling" temp of various starches. Potato and corn starch are around 70C (140-160F). Normal corn starch is low in amylose. High-Maize, being low in amylopectin, gels at temperatures well above boiling and may even require pressure to break down the amylose granules of corn. This is not unique to Hi-Maize, but all corn amylose.

      My question about Hi-Maize, and I hope Rhonda checks back. Is Hi-Maize corn flour or corn starch? And if it is flour, why don't they make a pure Hi-Maize starch?

      All the other things you are mentioning, dextrins, RS4, and hydrolyzed food fibers are all man-made and used to increase the tastiness, shelf life, or calories in an otherwise crappy junk food. Some of them can be classified as "fiber" and make a health claim possible.

      I personally think we should stick to natural prebiotics like raw starches, oat bran, and inulin for supplements. The other stuff, like partially hydrogenated guar gum may have some studies to back up the prebiotic capacity, but I am slightly biased against it.

      Not to say people should not give some of these a try, but follow the research and not manufacturer's claims.

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    11. Hi Tim, you're absolutely right. Hi-Maize is natural. I assumed it was synthetic because it's trademarked and if you search for Hi-Maize patents, there are some bearing the name. But here:

      "Hi-maize resistant starch is isolated from a special hybrid of corn that is naturally high in amylose content. It was developed through a natural plant breeding program over the past thirty years. The corn is grown by American farmers in the central US. After harvesting, the starch is pulled out of the corn kernel through a conventional wet milling process. It is treated with mild heat and moisture and dried to a fine, white cornstarch powder."

      http://www.myworldhut.com/products/Hi%252dMaize-260-Resistant-Starch-All%252dNatural-Fiber-Bulk.html

      Now, if Hi-Maize has low amylose vis-a-vis BRM PS or Barry Farm's plantain starch, then would there be a difference in BG movement? I remember Mung Bean Starch having the highest level of amylose and that was one of the reasons for being so potent. But Hi-Maize can be potent without the high level of amylose, which would normally push RS more down to the large intestine and reduce glycemic load? As in high-amylose long-grain rice (vs. short-grain sticky Sushi rice) that have lower GL?

      From the above description, the manufacturing process is similar to obtaining potato starch. So it seems to be starch, not flour.

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    12. Hi-Maize is high in amylose. But this gets into a deep and twisting rabbit hole!

      The resistance to digestion is not dictated by the presence of amylose or amylopectin starch, but more the physical characteristics of the starch granules. Each starch granule is packed with both amylose and amylopectin, they don't have their own granules.

      Looking at the amylose content is not always a predictor of RS. But in corn, it works out well. Potatoes are fairly low in amylose, but the structure of the starch granules make them resist digestion.

      There are volumes of studies on starch morphology, but there are still many mysteries surrounding starch, like the initial transformation, microbial residents, and what exactly lies inside the very center (hilum).

      But I'm telling you guys...raw starch grains are pure magic!

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  10. I can share that my total cholesterol level dropped 50 points after a year or so eating RS. Of course we don't know if this was due to the RS. I know, 50 points is a lot, so I'm not going to reveal the numbers because people might freak out. I've got extremely high HDL; the lab put me in the "low risk" box. I never talk about this, because cholesterol is such a touchy subject. Worse than politics.

    D.

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  11. From Ellen who could not get the comments to cooperate:

    My theory is, that with the potato diet you give the bugs time to set up shop and optimally use every single product / byproduct / metabolite etc of the fermentation. Meaning a diverse and stable community where intruders can't find a single crumb.
    In 'the good gut' (I think at least) I read that the bugs can hide in the crypts when not fed properly for a certain time at least and reappear. So maybe, after they were introduced into the system, with a certain and not to extreme change in fiber they just do that.
    I guess it would be interesting to see if Wilburs bugs do just that. Also meaning that a report would be quite different from day to day, some in the lumen, some hiding.
    Of course this is only the case in a 'healthy gut'.

    Nice to speculate with you guys!

    Ellen from Switzerland

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  12. Whether or not you like/benefit from RPS, I just don't understand why people can't see it as a 'real' food. If RPS isn't a real food, then neither is something like lemon juice... or any other whole food that we eat only part of.

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  13. I found this site while googling "inulin" She even has quite a few recipes using inulin powder. A good way to get more inulin into the system.

    Jo tB

    http://www.naturalprebiotics.com/inulin.html

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    1. Jo - About a month after I 'discovered' potato starch, I had the realization that inulin and some other prebiotics were doing the same thing.

      I got to digging to see why these were not popular and did not seem so effective. What I found was that the recommended doses of inulin and other fiber supplements were too low to do any good. To use commercial inulin to get a meaningful dose, ie. 2-4TBS/day, is a very expensive habit.

      I think it's all a numbers game. We need X amount of fermentable fiber to reach our large intestine on a near-daily basis to keep a truly healthy/happy gut. 1tsp of inulin powder will not cut it.

      But I can relate to the website you linked, championing inulin from sunchokes. It's a great source. But the cost is about $7 per 100g for sunchoke inulin, compared with potato starch at about $1 per 100g.

      Inulin is a great prebiotic.

      Another thing I learned early on in this journey...I can make potato starch at home as simply as squeezing a lemon, as Lauren put it. I can put a single potato in my juicer machine and out comes a cup of water with 4 or 5 TBS of potato starch. This is not possible with inulin.

      From what I have read, inulin extraction is a very lengthy process of heating and cooling and the roots that contain inulin, something you cannot do at home. And it takes tons of roots to make pounds of inulin. I'm also pretty sure that inulin is a byproduct of fructose extraction.

      These are not reasons to shun inulin, by any means, just an example of my surprise at people bias against raw potato starch, the 'unnatural' fiber supplement.

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    2. Tim, you've got a point, the inulin powder is much more expensive. I like your idea of juicing a raw potato. I have a slow juicer, and pushing a large spud through it would result in a glass of juice and if I let it stand a while the potato powder will sink to the bottom.

      Jo tB

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    3. The reason I am looking at alternatives to potato starch is because of my histamine intolerance I have to avoid night shades. I will give the potatoe juice a try, but if the itching flares up, I will have to hold off until I get the histamines under control.

      Jo tB

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    4. Jo - Any chance you can get Hi-Maize in the Netherlands? It's a corn-based RS.

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    5. Tim, I can get organic maismeel (corn starch) in Holland, but don't know if it Hi-Maize.
      http://www.drogisterij.nl/bioculinair-maismeel.html

      I can also get R.A.N. corn starch (in fact it's my local toko shop near the albert Cuyp market. But again, I don't know if it Hi-Maize.
      http://www.onlinetoko.eu/a-26690486/rijst-meel-granen-bonen/p-a-n-maismeel-1kg/

      Jo

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    6. Jo - definitely not Hi-Maize. Regular cornstarch has almost no RS, maybe 5% or so. Same as rice starch.

      Not sure what is available in the EU for RS cornstarch.

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    7. I thought as much. So I tried a google search Hi-Maize resistant starch in the hope of finding a Dutch site and hey presto found this one:

      http://www.benvital.nl/index.php?sub=producten&id=9

      The sell a product called Fiber fin, and according to them it is made of wit mais zetmeel met 60% vezels (resistant zetmeel, which when translated into English sounds a lot like Hi-Maize.

      I've sent them an email, and hopefully they will come back me. Keeping fingers crossed that I have found a source in Holland.

      Jo

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    8. This looks exactly like Hi-Maize, and they even recommend using as a supplement in the FAQ section:

      "Een eetlepel Fiberfin over de müesli strooien in de yogurt, direct in de yogurt of in een melkdrankje helpt om gezonder te leven en de slanke lijn te bewaren. Alleen deze geringe dosering stimuleert de vetverbranding een dag lang. Bij deze dosering is een beker Fiberfin van 400 gram voldoende voor bijna anderhalve maand."

      How much does a 400g container cost?

      I'm surprised there is not a product like this in the US.

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    9. Passing this on from Alexandra:

      Jo tB, you can try to order Fiberfin from benvital. It's a Scandinavian product formerly known as Hi-Maize. It's 14,90 euro for 400 g plus transportation cost, so almost 21 euro total

      http://www.benvital.nl/index.php?sub=producten&id=9

      You can read more about it here

      http://www.smulweb.nl/blog/Dezine/12928/resistent-zetmeel-resistant-starch-en-voedingsvezels-als-vetverbranders-fiberfin-en-probiotica

      Sorry guys, all in Dutch, but otherwise it would be in Swedish http://sukrin.com/se/fiberfin/om/. ;-)

      Sorry for the overload on links here Tim. ;-) Hope this works.

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    10. Thanks Alexandra and Tim, looking at the smulweb site and Dezine's article, she says it's a Norwegian product, also available in Sweden, Denmark and of course Holland. I even found Fiberfin available on Amazon.co.uk!! Dezine wrote that article in 2011 and she quotes a price of 14,90 Euro. It is still available at 14,90 Euro and I have found 5 on line shops that sell it, so plernty of choice. I will be ordering 2 pots shortly.
      On the Swedish site funksjonell in swedish refers to Hi-Maize.
      Dezine's article was very informative, she quotes all the things we now associate with resistant starch.

      Jo tB

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    11. Jo tB, histamine intolerance? Is it a methylation issue or mast cell activation disorder?

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    12. Heather, I've got no idea. I had a stool test done and my Igg and Igg4 levels were through the roof. It could be one or the other, or it could be both. My stomach pH was high, indicating low stomach acid. My gut bacteria levels was low and my gut lining (film?) was thin and needed thickening. Quite a few issued to contend with at the same time.

      I've been reading up on the low stomach acid issue and it seems that is the basis of the problem. With low stomach acid our digestion is poor, so nutrient absorption is poor, so you get nutrient deficiencies, your inflammation goes up, and you end up in a vicious circle where nothing seems to go right. So it is a multi-pronged attack. I should take Apple cider Vinegar to lower my pH, but it upsets my stomach too much, so I use lemon juice instead. Hydrozyme to deal with the low stomach acid (improve digestion) and probiotics for the gut bacteria. And I am taking resistant starches to keep the critters in the factory happy.

      Jo tB

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  14. Hi Tim and all!

    I am thrilled to have found your blog, with so much great, objective, introspective, investigative, and grounded information! Lurking for over week, reading and rereading posts and comments has turned my world on its head a bit, making me reconsider many dietary choices. I now see that many of the foods and fibers I avoided due to a dysbiotic gut were the exact things I needed. I gave the potato diet a whirl, lasted a day due to my supply of healthy organic potatoes not arriving. I had added in cooked and cooled potatoes for a few days before to get over the inevitable bloating. I feared the "walking farts" (farts come out when you take a step and there is nothing you can do to hold them in) would happen, as usually does with potato soup, but it didn't. Two days of discomfort, then everything calmed down, less gas than I and my family are acclimated to :) I also droped 4 stubborn lbs that were part of my quit smoking weight gain.

    Question: might peas offer a similar effect for those that are nightshade sensitive? I am going to switch today and see what happens. I will not be cooling them, just eating them warm.

    Thank you again for all you do here!

    Heather C.

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    1. Heather, you can try making salad from black eye peas. Soak them for a number of hours before cooking. Vinegar, olive oil, salt, onion, parsley, is all you need to add to them, but you can get more creative. Eaten cool/cold, this is a very low glycemic salad.

      I would figure that fresh green peas would not contain enough or any resistant starch.

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    2. Heather - I always have to laugh when people do this, it must just be human nature. I have no idea if other foods would work, I just stick with potatoes. The nutrition and macro/micro-nutrients in potatoes seem to be just right to keep the potato diet alive through the centuries.

      There was a doctor who used rice, but had to "whip and browbeat" patients to follow the diet, lol. Watch funny video:

      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GQb5Fe6hZXw

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    3. Tim, you laughing at my suggestion? Beans don't have the same nutrient ratios as potatoes, but if someone isn't living on beans alone, they are not bad. At least they make for good poops. ;) Early last year 'Marie' (a FTA commenter) and I did head to head glucose curves from fasting to consuming a large quantity of black eye pea salad. Blood glucose went from 4.5 (4.8) to 5.7 (5.8) then gradually down over three hours. Potatoes cooked and cooled, reheated, also don't cause much of a rise either. Potatoes cooked Greek style with lemon juice I have not tried yet to determine effect on blood sugar. They are not cooked and cooled but maybe the lemon juice would have an effect on muting blood glucose effect especially with diabetics. One day I'll experiment unless someone else around here can do it sooner.

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    4. I would never laugh at you, Gab! hee hee

      No, I just think it's funny how everyone always wants to try a different food with the potato hack. I have no doubt there are other foods that will work. I actually tried a week of just beans last summer. The weight loss was there, but it was much less enjoyable than eating potatoes, if that is even possible, lol.

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    5. Heather

      do not listen to these two people laughing. Please, do your "pea diet" and tell us what it feels like!

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    6. LOL! Gemma we ARE friendly laughers. But really, unless the peas are starchy, not sure how much they'll get done except good poops.

      Fresh green pea soup with little dumplings is yum. No doubt you've made some for your family this summer.

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    7. I started it with coffee, then about a lb of peas boiled with salt. Less hungry now than I was yesterday. I don't have but a few lbs to lose, I am looking more for the gut benefits. So far so good! I may scrap it, I may stick with it.. haven't made up my mind.

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    8. Tim, Gabriella, now you have me thinking about cooked and cooled rice with the peas... so many options.

      Tim, I do understand the "laughability" of subbing other foods, just eat the potatoes!

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    9. You can make rice with potatoes like the Iranians. A bit of a convoluted recipe but the potatoes on the bottom of the pot are nice and crunchy and toasty.

      Or make really good hashbrowns and mix with reheated cooked rice. Don't bother with the hyperbole that it's a double starch dish.

      Sorry, but when it comes to green peas and rice, I'm like my dearly departed dog. I'd put three green peas in his huge bowl of food. All sorts of stuff mixed together. AT the end of the meal there would be an empty bowl with three very clean peas in the bottom.

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    10. LOL - great story about the dog.

      Yes to rice and potatoes (and some spices & stuff). Especially when you can pull off that crispy layer at the bottom. You gotta have onions in that bottom layer too, they get all caramelized .. mmm.

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    11. Yes, definitely, add onions, parsley, cilantro, mint, dill....... all finely chopped. Put the onions with the potato on the bottom with butter or ghee or avocado oil, layer the half cooked boiled rice on top in layers with finely chopped herbs. Make a mountain of rice, pour melted butter on it, put the lid on the pot using a tea towel wrapped around the inside surface of the lid, and steam for 20 minutes. Put the bottom of the pot in cold water for a couple or so minutes, so the potato combo lets go of the bottom, invert on serving platter.

      Or just google a recipe for 'Iranian rice'. You could choose Jeweled Rice too. I don't put the carrot slivers or orange peel in, and call it 'wedding rice'.... 'better than sex'....mwahahaha http://www.thekitchn.com/recipe-iranian-jeweled-rice-recipes-from-the-kitchn-194680

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    12. I make chelo tahdig, but use yogurt. You boil the rice for about 5minutes and strain it. Add a cup of rice to some yogurt, spread it on the bottom of pan add rest of rice and pour some butter on top and use the tea towel method. I need to try the potato method!

      Delete
  15. Thank you all! I HATE beans, can't stand them.. too many a night as a child sitting at the dinner table after all had finished, hoping to sneak the black eyed peas or lima beans into the dog (tiny dog mind you) so I could leave the table.

    There is research on peas, and pig guts, decreasing gut permeability and the like.

    Tim, switching it up because I wanted to continue the concept but have no viable potatoes for now. I will do it again for sure! Though, I did experience what I consider nicotine withdrawal symptoms yesterday.. any ideas?

    Heather C.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. I will be curious, too, to hear the results of an all pea diet.

      "I did experience what I consider nicotine withdrawal symptoms yesterday.. any ideas?"

      No ideas. Not sure I understand fully what you mean.

      Delete
    2. Tim, I used to smoke, and when I went too long between cigarettes, I would get "fuzzy". I had that exact feeling for several hours yesterday.

      Delete
    3. Heather, learn yoga breathing. That'll cure your fuzzies. Smokers tend to not use too much diaphragmatic breathing except when they take a drag off the ciggie. Ujjai breathing. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ujjayi_breath

      You may need a teacher.

      Delete
    4. Gabriella, it went away on its own. I started yoga this summer, love it and use the techinques regularly. Never thought I would be into yoga.

      And the rice with potatoes.. wow, after shunning carbs and starches for so long, it would be like crack to me I'm sure! May try it.

      Delete
    5. I know what you mean. In my bad days, I enjoyed cigars too frequently and experienced the same fuzziness when I stopped. It might be diet related, but I don't know. The gut produces a lot of feel-good stuff (serotonin, etc.) that smoking or thinking about smoking does, I think. So maybe there's confusion in your brain when your gut is happy.

      I ve y rarely smoke cigars anymore. Last was a few months ago. I'd like to say the gut thing has made it easier, but who knows?

      Mr heisenbug in his blog had a post about how smoking altered the gut microbiome.

      The gut and lung microbiomes are connected. Lots of studies, especially about allergies. I think having a good gut has helped me recover. I used to dread the blow-out test at my physical. I'd pass, after a few tries. Now I easily pass first time. Doc laughs: "off the charts".

      Keep up the good work. If you are (as I was) in any sort of denial about the harms of smoking, maybe read "The Emperor of All Maladies." Scientists hellbent on discrediting anti-smoking research found themselves facing evidence they could not refute.

      Delete
    6. Thanks Wilbur, it was easy to quit smoking once I read it was a major source of methanol, which is why I gave up juices and artificial sweeteners years ago. Why the heck would I continue to put it in my body?

      Hubby still smokes and no problems being near it other than nausea ;)

      Delete
    7. Potatoes and tobacco are both members of the solonaceae family. They are related. My skin cleared up quite a bit after I quit smoking over a year ago, but I still get breakouts on my back and shoulders that I've always wondered might disappear if I gave up potatoes, but I won't.

      Delete
    8. Jeff, I did wonder about that as I had read that potatoes contain nicotine if that was triggering me.

      Delete
    9. This comment has been removed by the author.

      Delete
    10. Nicotine issues? Maybe this bacteria (Pseudomonas putida) would help.

      Study :http://pubs.acs.org/doi/abs/10.1021/jacs.5b06605

      "In our current campaign we offer a nicotine-degrading enzyme from Pseudomonas putida, NicA2, a flavin-containing protein."

      According to Wiki it's found in the soil and has some other beneficial properties for the caffeine addict.

      Delete
  16. Re gut and lung connection, I recently learned that when colon cancer metastasizes the lung is where it usually goes first.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. I always thought it's the liver. Portal system takes all blood from colon to liver. Unless cells are going through lymph channels. Are they?

      Delete
    2. from - http://www.webmd.com/colorectal-cancer/tc/colorectal-cancer-metastatic-or-recurrent-topic-overview
      Metastatic cancer is cancer that has spread to other parts of the body. When colon or rectal cancer spreads, it most often spreads to the liver. Sometimes it spreads to the lungs, bones, or other organs in the body.

      Delete
    3. It's all sobering. Here's another good source.

      http://www.cancer.gov/about-cancer/what-is-cancer/metastatic-fact-sheet

      Delete
    4. This comment has been removed by the author.

      Delete
  17. So clearly it does not always go to the lung first, but it is interesting that on Wilbur's link the lung is listed as a common meastatic site in each type of cancer.

    ReplyDelete
  18. Hey Tim and everyone,

    Remember when Mike Eades wrote about fiber tearing the colon, which then produced mucus, and that was why fiber helped bowel movements? And then that Fiber Menace guy said the same thing or something similar?

    But wasn't there a good, scientific, response to that somehwere?

    Can anybody point me to that response, or clarify that issue?

    Thanks

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. ellie, fibre won't 'tear' the colon. Wheat bran is not terribly digestible by bacteria in the colon. So it doesn't provide secondary nourishment for the cells that line the inside of the colon.

      Resistant starch in the colon results in the production of butyrate by the bacteria. Butyrate is a food for the cells that line the colon. In response to this butyrate, the cells produce mucous. That's a happy colonocyte.

      Watch this video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NI3KtR3LoqM

      Delete
    2. There was soooo much misinformation put out in the 80's and 90's about fiber. Fiber Menace was probably the penultimate disservice to humanity, and it allowed for the ketogenic diet craze, 'cuz we don't need no fiber!'

      You know what is abrasive to the lining of the intestines? I was going to say 'nails and glass' but I think people have even eaten these without permanent damage (not going to try, lol).

      Where I think the world got off-track with fiber, is that there was a good recommendation made around the world, for 25-40g of fiber per day. This would be great if that were fermentable fiber, but there was no distinction ever made, and food manufaturers quickly started dumping cheap cellulose into everything and called it "high in fiber".

      This is a waste and helps few. My point, all along, is that humans need a walloping dose of fermentable fiber most days, in the range of 20-40g, or 2-4TBS of potato starch equivalent.

      I think if a person eats a very targeted, diverse diet, they can hit that goal with real foods, but when life gets in the way of perfect eating, you can supplement.

      RS is a great fiber to supplement with. It's more natural than many other fiber supplements and largely missing even in a plant rich diet.

      Delete
    3. Thanks Gab and Tim.

      I wasn't personally worried about fiber tearing my colon. i have been onboard with this journey of Tim's for years now. But someone on another group brought up that idea and I was hoping someone here had a study to refute it directly. i had forgotten about that video and will post it there.

      But in direct response to the tearing issue, are you saying,.Tim, othat large amounts of cellulose would indeed scrape or tear the colon? Clearly cellulose won't benefit the gut bacteria the same way fermentable fibers will, but would it harm the colon wall? and thus we can pin this misunderstanding of the vagueness of the descriptor "fiber"

      Delete
    4. I don't think any natural fiber will scrape or tear. Just a crazy claim perpetuated in the low-carb circles.

      But, I am saying that large amounts of cellulose type fibers are not very helpful, especially when the diet is devoid of fermentable fibers like RS, inulin, pectin, etc...

      Actually, we looked at some studies and lots of people have a gut flora that can ferment even cellulose, but I do not think it is common.

      In saying that, I have noticed that after a meal of corn, there is no evidence the next day whereas in the past, it seemed every single kernel survived the trip to the loo. I've heard this from quite a few others who have been supplementing RS, too. So, possibly a healthy gut replete with fiber degraders can degrade all sorts of fiber.

      But generally, cellulose is not considered a "prebiotic" fiber, as least as far as I'm aware.

      Delete
    5. Oh wait...the smoking gun! Here is a comment from Mike Eades

      "No, the researchers didn’t control for glutens, nor did they differentiate between soluble and insoluble fiber. They damaged the cells mechanically and watched how they repaired themselves, which they did by secreting mucus. The assumption is that fiber causes this same damage."

      From frm this post
      https://proteinpower.com/drmike/2006/08/30/a-cautionary-tale-of-mucus-fore-and-aft/

      So it was an ASSumption that Dr Eades based his theory upon and it coninues to rattle around the internet and mislead people!

      Delete
    6. Tim, corn: yes. I noticed the same thing. I wondered, 'where's the corn?' You explained it. Used to be beets too. Now? Where's the beets? I guess stuff is breaking down better these days.

      Delete
    7. Elliebelly - Not at all surprising.

      Delete
    8. You know how this thing came about? Konstantyn's book is really a rant against indigstible fiber like psyllum husks that are often recommended by doctors and dietitians. Those are really for slow transit, as the bulked up stool would travel down the large intestine. He's against taking those types of fiber when you have a super sensitive colon from repeat injuries: fecal impaction, anal fissures, internal hemorrhoids, etc. Most commonly these injuries happen due to following LC diets; the moisture in your colon basically disappears just the moisture is zapped from your eyes, mouth and the GI tract. That lack of lubrication make LCers vulnerable to the irregular Bristol Chart 1-3 types of stool which can scrape and tear your anal lining. Apparently, Konstantyn did follow a LC diet at one point; he rails against it. Now, taking psyllium husk powder or even eating cruciferous vegetables when your colon lacks moisture is bad news. That doesn't help the transit so much because you lack lubrication from moisture; you need to add back carbs. 90% of the constipation that happens during VLCing is due to this phenomenon. Unfortunately, most people can't think out of the box and think it's due to something else -- like the smaller stool volume due to being HFLC, slow transit, hypothyroidism, etc. Just add back carbs and the problem is solved 90% of the time.

      So in this context, Konstantyn's claim is correct. However, to sell his book, he turned this specific remedy into a general proposition, which obviously doesn't apply to the greater population. Very few people follow LC diets. And fiber help most people to overcome constipation, especially the slow transit kind.

      Delete
  19. I know this doesn't really relate to the post but do you recommend a specific gut test? I'm really considering taking one before I start taking PS. I'm not sure what the difference is btw the american gut, ubiome and genova ones. I was trying to figure out what exactly the limitations are of these kinds of test. Do they tell you if yeasts are present in the gut?

    Again, sorry for being a bit off topic.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. American Gut - Can take up to 12 months. They report bacteria at genus level, and provide raw data for further analysis. $99

      uBiome - 6 weeks or less, report bacteria to genus level and provide raw data. $89

      Genove - 6 weeks or less. They can customize the test to look for bacteria, yeast, fungus, parasites and also can look for other markers of health. Needs a prescription from a doctor. No raw data file. Free to $500 depending on insurance.

      I have been really happy with uBiome, speed, customer service, online support/info, and the quality of the reports. BUT, only tells bacteria. I would say that if you are just doing this purely out of curiosity and maybe are trying to work through some gut issues, use uBiome in some before/after tests or a baseline and a year later.

      If you have big problems, you may unfortunately need to find a good doc who can order tests and help you out. These docs are far and few between.

      Delete
  20. Oh, and would ph test strips be a good way of finding out one's intestinal ph via stool ph? Just curious.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. I tried. Could not get a good reading with strips. You really need a (expensive) pH tester to check.

      If your pH is off, there's not a whole lot you can do other than change diet to include more fiber. Eating acidic or alkaline foods will not make any difference. The pH in the stool is determined by fermentation of fibers from gut bacteria.

      Delete
    2. Thanks! I can't see my G.I. doctor until October. I don't know what importance he'd give to these kinds of tests but he's very, very thorough and has given me a number of tests to rule things out and I think he'd be willing to try something if he thought it would lead somewhere. But since he's so thorough he'd definitely want to know why I thought I needed it and how I think it would help me so I'll have to have my answer prepared, he kind of need to be on my toes when I visit him - a tad intimidating.

      That's a shame I need a script for the Genove test, may be not if it's expensive. I might do a ubiome and then see how I feel in October.

      Delete
    3. Sorry Tim, I find that eating acidic and alkaline foods do make a difference but not in the way I expected. I had been lead to believe that eating meat would make things acidic and veges, alkaline.

      My doctor (a functional medicine one who has been doing nutritional medicine for years) indicated that the whole of the gut and related areas are impacted. So if your intestine is acid so the urine and saliva will also be acid. This means that one can pH test one's urine which is easier than stools.

      In my experience eating a basic meat, vegetable and fruit diet supplementing with PS and other resistant starches my urine stays slightly alkaline. If I eat sugary things it quickly goes acidic. A half teaspoon of sodium bicarbonate in water will make it alkaline again. No amount of veges will undo the acidifying impact of a helping of icecream but sodium bicarb will.

      I'm posting this under difficult conditions so will post this before I write any more.
      Harriet

      Delete
    4. This computer is playing up and I'm writing this on wifi in Vancouver (I'm away 5 weeks all up) and every time I use a b or a g it hides the post I'm trying to write.

      Back to pH. One of the unhealthy gut bacteria in my tests, according to my doctor, only thrives in acidic conditions so she is insistent I be more stringent in keeping things alkaline. It does seem to be helping.

      Palm sized pieces of meat don't make things acidic, nor does my general diet. But stress does impact on acidity, as does anything with sugar, or, I think, grains - though I have so few of those that I'm not absolutely sure about them.

      According to my doc many people with highly acidic lower guts need a lot more sodium bicarb than I do - up to 2 teaspoons at a time to alkalise things but she reckons that is because my diet has been pretty good for a long time.

      Harriet

      Delete
  21. http://www.naturalevolutionfoods.com.au/order/green-banana-resistant-starch/green-banana-resistant-starch/ . Hi, first time writing to your post but have enjoyed reading it for a while. Your readers might be interested in trying this green banana resistant starch. The bananas are bio-dynamically grown in the beautiful Atherton Tablelands of north Queensland Australia. Originally they had straight green banana flour but found that half their customers were using it for baking and the other half using it as a supplement so they developed two types of flour based on two different types of bananas, one using Cavendish (large) bananas for superior baking and this one using small (lady fingers) bananas for its superior resistant starch content, which they claim is clinically tested to be at 39% resistant starch. Judging by the gas I was releasing when first trying this (later subdued) it definitely has an effect on the colon. Good results in the toilet as well. Take a look at the website.
    Keep up your good work on this topic. I'm glad I've found out about resistant starch due to yourself and Richard at free the animal website. Wasn't long ago I couldn't get below 7.8 (140) after 2 hours on an oral glucose test. Last time I tried I was down to 6.4 (116) at the 2 hour mark.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. I have heard good things about those green bananas in Australia. That's great news on the glucose!

      Delete
    2. Mike from SarasotaAugust 11, 2015 at 11:12 AM

      I wonder which has more RS. Green Banana Flour or Milled Tiger Nuts. Because Tiger Nuts are easier to come by in the states. Nutryvitta Green Banana Flour is about $40 for 1kg. The Natural Evolution is over $60 shipped from Australia. I didn't care for the WEDO Banana Flour which would be cheaper than the other two I know.

      Delete
    3. Hi Mike - Green banana flour, for sure.

      I spoke with the Chief Nut at TigerNutsUSA, and they had their products analyzed. 2% RS. WeDo banana flour is around 30%, but they are onto a new line which they hope comes in much higher. People are learning!

      The deal with tiger nuts, I believe, is that tiger nuts are very high in RS when fresh, but as they matire and dry, the starch turns to sugar, just as a banana does.

      I can verify that the tiger nuts I grow in my garden are not sweet at all when freshly picked, but after a few days drying they start to get a raisin-y taste and texture.

      BUT do not let that little tidbit dissuade you away from eating tiger nuts! They are damn fine food for the gut. I have no idea what all fiber is found in them, but they are high in total dietary fiber.

      Have you checked out Barry Farms Plantain Flour? Supposedly plantain flour and green banana flour are supposed to clock in at about 50% RS. Some problems are that in the countries of origin, some producers boil the green bananas/plantains to make them easier to peel. Oooops.

      Until they come labeled with RS content, you are taking chances that you are not getting the fiber-filled supplement you are after. Tapioca shares the same problems. Potato starch is the only one I can recommend, and I think that "most" of the time it will be about 75% RS.

      Oh, also Hi-Maize corn starch comes in at a respectable 54% or so. If I were to recommend an alternative to banana or potato starches, it would be Hi-Maize.

      Delete
    4. Mike from SarasotaAugust 11, 2015 at 4:23 PM

      Thanks Tim. Explains why I never noticed much of anything doing 30g/day of TigerNut flour. Lack of RS aside another qualm I have with TigerNuts is they seem to get moldy. Quite a few arrive inedible. (to be fair those were purchased through OrganicGemini, not TigerNuts USA)

      I really ought to just buy a dehydrator and mill my own plantain or green bananas.

      Delete
    5. A dehydrator? in Sarasota? You must have the same salesman that just sold me a new ice maker.

      Just kidding. Actually, I just bought a big ol' Excalibur dehydrator and have it full of carrots and potatoes. It will be perfect for plantains, but I have been making dried plantains for years just by slicing them long ways into 4 or 5 slabs and laying them on a screen I made out of chicken wire.

      They dry fast on a hot, sunny day. A fan on them speeds it up even more.

      I actually love dried plantains. They make a great platform for nut butter, pate, smoked salmon, hummus, etc... I believe, through reading and through the 'effects' you can safely say that one large green plantain has about 50g of RS.

      I buy big ugly...nevermind. A blog post!

      Delete
  22. I don't know how to approach this subtly, so I'll just have at it. When I eat supplemental RS, I pass large amounts of ,mucous. I'm talking fully shaped nuggets of and stools enveloped in it. When I stop taking rs, it goes away.
    I have AS and assume that my gut and colon are NOT healthy.
    Reading this from Gabriella:
    "Resistant starch in the colon results in the production of butyrate by the bacteria. Butyrate is a food for the cells that line the colon. In response to this butyrate, the cells produce mucous. That's a happy colonocyte."
    I had very severe bloating, cramping and impossibly smelly gas when I first started taking RPS. At this point, I can take unlimited amounts without any stomach issues but am confused as to wether or not I should consider this mucous a positive sign or not?

    I hope you understand my choice to stay anonymous for this comment ;-)

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. It's definitely telling you something, but I have no idea what. Not sure how much RPS you take and what the rest of your diet is like. Maybe try decreasing RPS in half and eating more high fiber foods and see what happens.

      Delete
    2. I have AS too and had forgotten about those stools, though I didn't have that problem for long, just days. My interpretation was that it was the body's immune system protecting me as it expelled the dead and dying bacteria, though I have no idea if that is "true"/accurate.

      Harriet

      Delete
    3. About 10% of people with AS have IBD. I think you guys probably know that. And Crohn's is known for producing slimy stool that's mixed with mucus and blood. I would go see a GI or at least compare those symptoms against a checklist for Crohn's. It could be the temporary spike in klebsiella due to RS ingestion. That's just a guess but you can google and there should be plenty of research linking Crohn's with AS.

      http://www.researchgate.net/publication/239948756_The_Link_between_Ankylosing_Spondylitis_Crohn's_Disease_Klebsiella_and_Starch_Consumption

      Delete
  23. Hi Tim,

    A few months ago I learned about RS, mostly from Richard's blog. So I started supplementing with PS (plus a bit of other prebiotics) and got a complete "wow" effect - my sense of well-being, sleep, energy, etc. incredibly improved. I guess there's nothing new about this - a lot of people report the same.

    But I also got a strange side-effect. I consider myself as quite an experienced meditator and I try to be generally mindful in my life. Since I started supplementing with PS, I am unable to meditate, concentrate and to be mindful. My mind is so energetic it jumps from one thought to another; I cannot slow it down however I try. It's like all my energy is in the head, and don't really feel my body. When I sit to meditate, after some time, I start seeing constant vivid quickly changing images, just like when dreaming. Not exactly what you want to see when you try to be present here and now.

    Did anyone report this before? Maybe there is some connection between serotonin, melatonin or other chemicals produced by microbes in the gut? Any thought will be appreciated.

    BR, Alex

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. First I've heard this particular problem. Brain-gut connection in action?

      Delete
    2. Alex, that's interesting. Have you tried following those images? They might be telling you something. I'd also suggest anything you can do to get yourself more grounded into your body might be a good idea. Massage, some kind of vigorous sport or more sex maybe? Maybe work on the vagus nerve as well (singing, gargling).

      Tim, I've seen this before. I don't think it's a problem per se, it's actually a good sign. It's now a matter of channeling that energy.

      Delete
    3. Cukey, I think it's the acetate. The bacteria make butyrate, propionate and acetate. The latter goes right through and stimulates the brain. This was discussed way back on Heisenbug's blog.

      Probably a better idea to meditate at a time when RS is not in the colon?

      Delete
    4. Hi Alex.I have read that meditation activates the same brainwaves as sleep. Sometimes I twitch and spasm like a dog does though thankfully don't do the running thing...yet lol.
      Maybe yours is like that but with images as I have read some get very weird dreams after taking RS..I think meditation is a way of resetting the brain.Perhaps with RS you don't have the need to reset so often.

      Delete
  24. For anyone in Canada, "Benefiber" is a 100% inulin product (vs the US Benefiber which is wheat dextrin)... you can probably order it from amazon.ca (not .com), I get mine at Costco.

    ReplyDelete
  25. Bananas!

    Let's have a look at bananas and my beloved endophytic microbes, bacteria this time. Cool videos inside.


    Live cell imaging reveals extensive intracellular cytoplasmic colonization of banana by normally non-cultivable endophytic bacteria (2014)

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. I have a feeling that when they start looking even harder, they will have to re-write all of the plant biology text books!

      From the banana paper:

      "Plant microbodies including peroxisomes, glyoxisomes, lysosomes and Golgi vesicles are known to show motility in the intracellular matrix and have a similar size and shape to coccus-shaped bacteria but they do not bear DNA"

      I'll bet that scientists have been misidentifying microbes inside plant cells forever.

      Delete
    2. "they will have to re-write all of the plant biology text books!"

      There are still many mysteries... quoting this paper:

      "The concept of intracellular colonization assumes importance in several respects. It is a priority task now to elucidate how the organisms gain access to the intracellular niche."

      or

      "The intracellular colonization also has implications in functional plant biology. The organisms survive in the intracellular environment akin to cellular organelles living on the host resources. Furthermore, the microbial products are released into the cytoplasm where they can possibly influence gene expression and the functioning of the host. In the absence of recognizing the microbial association, microbe-associated activities would masquerade as normal plant activities and would not be attributed to the associated organisms. "

      Delete
  26. Gemma -
    From the abstract- "The objective of this study was to determine whether the actively mobile micro-particles observed in the intracellular matrix of fresh tissue sections of banana included endophytic bacteria. Tissue sections (50–100 µm) from apical leaf sheaths..... "
    So, the bugs are in the leaf, not in the banana that we purchase at a store, unless I've missed something. Are you suggesting this may have a benefit for us humans who are eating the fruit? I would love to think so, since I eat a banana daily!

    ReplyDelete
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    1. Newbie

      the endophytic microbes live in all plant tissues, fruits included. They are selected, tolerated and maintained by the plant because they increase its fitness.

      Here strawberry fruit:

      A multiphasic approach for the identification of endophytic bacterial in strawberry fruit and their potential for plant growth promotion. (2012)

      "This study used a multiphasic approach, characterized by the simultaneous use of culture-dependent and culture-independent methods, to investigate endophytic bacterial communities in strawberry (Fragaria ananassa) fruit. A total of 92 bacterial endophytes were isolated and initially grouped by their repetitive extragenic palindromic (rep)-PCR banding pattern and biochemical features. Phylogenetic analysis of the 16S rRNA gene sequences of 45 representatives showed that the isolates belonged to the species Bacillus subtilis (eight isolates), Bacillus sp. (seven isolates), Enterobacter sp. (seven isolates), Enterobacter ludwigii (six isolates), Lactobacillus plantarum (six isolates), Pseudomonas sp. (five isolates), Pantoea punctata (three isolates), and Curtobacterium citreum (three isolates).

      Plant growth promotion was evaluated under greenhouse conditions and revealed the ability of the Bacillus strains to enhance the number of leaves, shoot length, root dry weight, and shoot dry weight. The activity of the bacterial isolate identified as B. subtilis NA-108 exerted the greatest influence on strawberry growth and showed a 42.8% increase in number of leaves, 15.26% for high shoot, 43.5% increase in root dry weight, and a 77% increase in shoot dry weight when compared with untreated controls."

      Delete
    2. If I understand this correctly, that means that eating raw vegetables and fruits is a method of getting probiotics?

      Maybe another part of what's bad in our diets is that so many of our veggies are cooked. I've personally become very fond of eating lots of raw veggies and fruits. Tonight I'm having raw okra, for instance, stems included. When I go out to restaurants, the veggies are almost all cooked, probably to hide the sorry state they were in before. I feel like I'm missed something when I'm done.

      Except at my favorite sushi place. I eat all the ornamental radishes and flowers (checking first to be sure they are edible). Plus seaweed salad. I come away happy.

      Delete
    3. This is why I was so upset about food being irradiated as well.

      We read a lot last year that showed certain forms of living bacteria can survive any extreme found on Earth from boiling water to pressures encountered at the bottom of the ocean, and more. Even pressures and temps encountered in outerspace.

      I have no idea, really, if cooking or irradiating food destroys any chance of the food being 'probiotic' but my gut instinct says that raw food is best for this effect.

      This discussion also makes the seaweed digesting Japanese guts seem more understandable.

      http://www.sharonlbegley.com/promiscuous-bacteria-gone-wild-why-sushi-gives-more-energy-to-the-japanese

      "And where did the Japanese get these nori-digesting bacteria? As best the scientists can figure, people who eat a lot of seaweed also consume a lot of marine bacteria that dine on the seaweed, too. Bacteria are notorious for being genetically promiscuous; that is, they pass DNA to strangers if the conditions are right. Marine bacteria that eat seaweed thus wound up in the guts of people who ate the seaweed (that is, Japanese people), transferred their seaweed-digesting genes to bacteria already living in the gut, and presto: the microbiota in Japanese guts now include bacteria able to digest nori.

      When I asked Czjzek whether Americans or other non-Japanese who consume a lot of nori could acquire the gene just as people in Japan did, she explained that the special conditions that allow such gene transfer “are probably not often encountered.” And since nori sheets “are sterilized and roasted, in contrast to traditional sushi,” in which nori was untreated and therefore contained living marine bacteria, making “such an event even less probable.”

      That actually deepens the mystery, since humans are born without gut bacteria but start acquiring them during infancy. The exact composition of the microbiota depends on what we eat and which gut bacteria are in the people around us. So while “Japanese are not born with Bacteroides plebeius,” Czjzek explains, “certain Japanese individuals are a ‘favorite playground’ for Bacteroides plebeius to inhabit ... Lateral gene transfer [from a marine bacterium to Bacteroides plebeius in the human gut] occurred once.” But once established in one or a few individuals, it spread to enough others that it’s essentially a stable, population-wide trait."

      Delete
  27. Tim, yesterday afternoon (Dutch time) I juiced 4 small organic potatoes skin and all and drank the mixture straight away. I added 1 tablespoon of inulin to my morning capachino and added 2 tablespoons of Maize maiszetmeel to my joghurt. NO noticable itching issues, so fingers crossed that it stays that way.

    In the health food store they have 2 versions: maismeel and Maize maiszetmeel which is similar to aardappelzetmeel. But I will buy Fiberfin.

    Jo tB

    http://judithsfavorites.com/nl/lichaamsverzorging/296-maize-maiszetmeel-.html

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    1. I juiced a couple potatoes last night as well. I'm always amazed at how much starch settles to the bottom of the glass.

      If you are doing OK with home made PS and not store-bought, it could be a sulfur sensitivity issue. They use sulfur (dioxide) to keep the starch from browning. Most of it has a very, very small amount. But some people are very sensitive. Other foods with sulfur are wine, dried fruits, and dried vegetables.

      A paper I was just looking at says:

      "Sulphur dioxide is widely used in the food and drinks industries for its properties as a preservative and antioxidant. Whilst harmless to healthy persons when used in recommended concentrations, it can induce asthma when inhaled or ingested by sensitive subjects, even in high dilution. About one in nine asthmatics gives a history of asthma worsened by drinking 'soft drinks' containing sulphur dioxide. They are comparatively young and their asthma is predominantly extrinsic. The amount of sulphur dioxide in foods is limited by regulation in the UK, by directive in the EEC, and by recommendations to 'good manufacturing practice' in the USA. A list is given of foods and beverages commonly containing sulphur dioxide. These are predominantly dried fruits and vegetables, soft drinks and alcoholic beverages. Maximal permitted concentrations are quoted. Exposure to sulphur dioxide may also occur during the manufacture and preparation of foods and drinks in the factory, restaurant and home."

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    2. And also, potato juice is a long-standing remedy/health drink in many parts of the world.

      http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16360927 :

      "Since about two-thirds of the patients benefited to some extent from the treatment, potato juice in its present formulation may be useful for self-treatment."

      http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3033477/ :

      Apparently potato juice is high in 'protease inhibitors' which may be part of the 'magic.' from the link above:

      "One way to improve dietary adherence rates in clinical practice may be to enhance satiety through the use of protease inhibitors. For a long time, plant protease inhibitors were considered as major anti-nutritional agents (3). Their presence in many seeds and tubers in high amounts has caused much speculation as to whether these inhibitors have any role in the control of proteolysis during development of plant tissues (4). The idea that protease inhibitors would interfere with animal digestive processes subsequently led to the discovery of a many serine protease inhibitors capable of protecting plants from mammalian digestive enzymes (5)."

      And, from Wiki on protease inhibitors:

      "Protease inhibitors (PIs) are a class of antiviral drugs that are widely used to treat HIV/AIDS and hepatitis caused by hepatitis C virus. Protease inhibitors prevent viral replication by selectively binding to viral proteases (e.g. HIV-1 protease) and blocking proteolytic cleavage of protein precursors that are necessary for the production of infectious viral particles.

      Protease inhibitors have been developed or are presently undergoing testing for treating various viruses:

      HIV/AIDS: antiretroviral protease inhibitors (saquinavir, ritonavir, indinavir, nelfinavir, amprenavir[1] etc.)
      Hepatitis C: boceprevir, telaprevir

      Given the specificity of the target of these drugs there is the risk, as in antibiotics, of the development of drug-resistant mutated viruses. To reduce this risk it is common to use several different drugs together that are each aimed at different targets."

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    3. I'm not sure this is a good aspect of Potato juice - we secrete many proteases into our intestine to help us digest proteins in our diet - if you inhibit these, will that lead to amino acid deficiencies or other problems?? Dr. Ayers (http://coolinginflammation.blogspot.ca/) has always said that plant molecules are not there for our benefit, but rather to defend against us. Maybe there are other aspects of it that supply the "magic". I think I'd stick to pure PS.

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    4. We discussed potato juice eons ago... a home remedy ignored by big pharma.

      It is a complex thing, basically a potato minus starch granules, some other polysaccharides, minerals, tons of other bioactive compounds (and microbes, lol), not only protease inhibitors.

      "plant molecules are not there for our benefit, but rather to defend against us"

      At some point this point of view becomes rather fuzzy... what is us, what is them?

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  29. Jo tB, it will be interesting to see what helps. Sounds like potatoes may just be the best thing for you!

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  30. I'm not sure of where to put this comment. I know here is the the most topical place, but it is the most read. Tim, feel free to move to or suggest another place.

    This is some thinking for people who have constipation. I've been fascinated by this paper

    http://www.nature.com/srep/2015/150804/srep12693/full/srep12693.html

    It is the first I've read that separates IBS into subcategories C (constipation), D (diarrhea), and M (mixed). From the study,

    "The microbiome of IBS-C patients did not show significant differences at any phylogenetic level with that of healthy controls. However, IBS-M patients, who alternate diarrhea and constipation, were associated with a 4.7-fold lower abundance of Erysipelotrichaceae (P = 0.0001, q = 0.006; Fig. 4B), sharing this difference with IBS-D patients. Our findings suggest that this bacterial group, which is absent in IBS-M and IBS-D, is associated with a non-diarrheic phenotype."

    This seems to suggest to me that IBS-C might be a different issue. But at the same time I was thinking about this, I had an experience that is now my second time. Here's the background: I started the oatmeal bran a while back. Everything was great. Then the last two days, I had near constipation issues, gas, bloating. Poops were hard to pass. I was about to blame the oatmeal since it was the only thing I'd really changed, and I hadn't had problems like this for over a year.

    Then it struck me. The last time I had this problem, it was because I wasn't drinking enough water. Damn! I had cut back on my water (not intentionally) and I had introduced more fiber. I drank a glass of water, and then I was THIRSTY! Today, I am back to my good good self. What a relief! I am drinking plenty of water. All my problems are gone.

    So what I'm wondering is if those with constipation are getting as much water as they think they are. And if it is a water deficiency, adding fibers will exacerbate it, which might explain why some feel worse constipation or become constipated when adding them. I don't drink enough to pee excessively, but I drink a fair amount. It was only a couple of days for me, but I could see how someone would call that IBS-C after a significant period of time!

    FWIW, my urine was normal colored when I was in deficit, so that is not a reliable indicator for me.

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    1. Gees, Wilbur, you hit the nail on the head for me. I constipate very easily, even when I'm on holidays. The last two days of experimenting with increasing RS I started constipating immediately (I felt clogged up all the time). It may or may not be a water issue for me, as I try to drink 1 1/2 liters of water/tea a day. Maybe I increased my RS too fast (from 4 teaspoons to 4 tablespoons) and whacked my critters senseless. My plan is to go back to 1 tablespoon of Inulin (as I had better stool results) and slowly build it up to 4 tablespoons. I will stick with Inulin for the time being as I had the best results with it. I will add 1 tsp of any other RS source and slowly build that up as well. As I have low stomach acid (along with the Histamine intolerance), that may be the cause of the clogging up easily. Low digestion, low absorption, etc..

      Jo tB

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    2. Same problem here, thought for sure this time would be different. Started a half-wilbur, I know for sure I drink plenty of water. Past few days I have been five months pregnant with a gas baby. I was trying to let it run its course, letting the gut bugs do their thing (maybe the bad is actually a good sign). I big dose of C and magnesium may be unavoidable.

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    3. I finally got around to trying to measure how much water I drink. I divide my fiber into two doses, one after breakfast and one after dinner. Figure 50-60 g of various fibers per drink. I mix each dose of fibers with no less than 16 oz (1/2 liter) of water. So right there I am at 32 oz of water per day.

      I also drink about 8 oz when I wake up, 8 oz after my walk, and about 8 oz in the evening. I have a 16 oz bottle I drink on walks.

      Now keep in mind that I'm an active male who walks a lot, and the temperatures are in the 90's.

      But this amount of water is insufficient for me. I got constipated from this. Where I screwed up is not taking little sips of water throughout the day. That gave me the symptoms of IBS-C. I started paying attention, and the symptoms were gone within a couple days, max. But I only had the symptoms for just a couple of days.

      From personal experience, even if I were doing just RPS or inulin, I would combine them with no less than 24 oz total of water and continue drinking my otherwise normal amount. That water is for the fiber to drink. Maybe try it for a couple of days? It might make you pee more, but I don't think excessively. Some of the fibers, like glucomannan, advice directly on the label to combine with at least 8-10 oz of water.

      I think those mixing this stuff with yogurt or smoothies have to be extra careful about water.

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  31. Wilbur, I drink a ton. I am active as well, mix the fibers with plenty of water, drink water all day (guzzle). I used to "regular", 3 sizable movements a day that I could set my watch by, along with being ibs-d from time to time. I called it "anxiety stomach". 15 years ago I had an ovarian cyst rupture, which irritated by abdominal cavity and stopped most of my motility for over a month. I am now to the point where I can almost always count on moving in the morning, but that's it. It takes an act of congress or exposure to gluten to cause further movements throughout the day. I still have tenderness in the area of the rupture and wonder if I have a partial blockage, thus any bulky fiber making things stop? My distrust of western medicine keeps me from getting it checked out for fear scoping would just make things worse. Ugh

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    1. Yikes! I dunno. Sounds like water is not your issue.

      I had I IBS-d too before I started this. I know what you mean by anxiety stomach! I used to be a college professor and got it before each time I gave a presentation. That was awful because I had to give them a lot. The worst was presenting at a different school because people hung around to talk and I didn't know where restrooms were. You brought back bad memories, but made me realize how far I've come. Good luck to you. I wish this would help everybody.

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  32. Thanks Wilbur! Sorry to bring back the bad memories, but misery lives company. I really need to slow my roll and start gradually with the starches and fibers. I also need to get a hold of some probiotics mentioned around here.

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    1. I have another thought. Through experience with another family member and through my reading, I understand that those who have C and D issues actually lose the ability to poop correctly (but it might be recoverable). It has to do with the strength of the muscles in the sphincter, I think. Trying to hold back (D) or push out (C) makes those muscles big and strong, and make it harder to go by making the path too narrow. Plus, the natural unconscious contractions of the colon become weak from disuse.

      I might not have this exactly right, and my advice to relax and avoid "pushing" seems superficial. But maybe it will give you ideas to pursue. I know I've read some guides on how to deal with this. TMI warning, but all that is required for me is a gentle contraction of the abs, and I can feel things moving inside without other sneezing or pushing on my part.

      So maybe your idea is right, but at a different location.

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    2. Although a good sneeze will sometimes work, I meant squeeze!

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    3. Never tmi! My passion has been true health (not finding it in a supplement) for many years. I know spend my days helping customers in the health food/supplement industry.. poop is always important! Health begins and ends in the gut. I use a makeshift squaty potty, I will even take a basket into the bathroom at work to elevate things.

      I can help everyone else poop with ease, but none of it applies to me yet. Though, like you, I look back and see how far I have come from my worst days. I am on the right track, and slowly applying all the wonderful information from Tim and all of you here will help me even more with my issues and those of my customers.

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  33. I think people have been corrupted by technology re the correct way to poop,you squat. Remember our ancestors and most of the world still do,not sit on a toilet bowl.While I am too decrepit to squat(you need a lifetimes expertise)I did buy a squatty potty off Amazon just for a giggle...but it works.Easy enough to make at home,it lifts the legs to a natural squat position just like if you were taken short in the wilds.Sitting isn't natural.

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