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Today I take on Dr. Terry Wahls.
Have you all heard of Dr. Terry Wahls? She's the doctor that cured herself of MS by eating a plant-based Paleo diet, ketogenic style. I've heard her name and I know she advocates lots of plants, but, it turns out, she also advises against grains, legumes, and starchy tubers.
Listen to Dr. Wahls' presentation from last month's AHS2016 show:
[tl/dr - gut bacteria is our friend, blah, blah, blah...welcome to 2012.]
The Good
Dr. Wahls recommends a gluten, dairy, and egg-free Paleo diet. She demands practitioners of her protocol include 9 cups of mostly raw veggies daily. Her veggies of choice are leafy greens, stalks, mushrooms, or as she says, "3 greens, 3 coloreds, and 3 sulfur" servings per day. Read a preview of her book, The Wahls Protocol.
The Bad
Where are the whole grains, fruit, berries, and tubers. I have a feeling if I dug deeper, I'd like this diet even less. Wahls' not only advocates low carb plants, she recommends a ketogenic low carb diet.
The Ugly
She had a whole slide devoted to the four RS types, good low-carb fiber, with a big warning (26:00):
AVOID raw potato starch! (glyphosate, C. difficile risks)
Her reason? RPS, is full of glyphosate! Round-up weed-killer. So, she says, RPS is particularly bad, she asserts, because it will cause you to get C.diff from the glyphosate. Where did that come from?
The truth is that glyphosate kills potato plants, and gets into the tubers...sooooooo, glyphosate is NOT USED on potatoes. In fact, every agriculture journal has many articles on avoiding glyphosate, even accidental drifting, because glyphosate is deadly to potatoes. Glyphosate can possibly be used to kill vines just prior to harvest, but this practice does not appear to be widespread. However, in the chance you want to avoid glyphosate, simply buy an organic potato starch. But I don't think it was really about glyphosate, it was just an effort to scare people away from potatoes and people who might advocate healthy whole grains and poisons like that. But don't get me started on glyphosate, I hate the stuff.
"Fiber"
Dr. Wahls recommends getting 80-150g per day of fiber. She does this, she says, by eating 9 cups of vegetables per day. The problem with this, these cups of veggies each have like 1-3g of fiber, and average 3-3-3 day shows as about 20g of fiber on my calculators, ie. mushrooms, 1g/cup; broccoli, 2.4g/cup. The only way she is getting near 90g is if she is using RS or other fiber supplements (excluding raw potato starch, of course). The fiber included in her keto-veggies is mostly non-fermentable, cellulose.
Throughout her AHS presentation, she discussed gut health, immunity, T-reg development, etc. Yet, fails to mention these particular items are heavy starch feeding systems. RS, especially RPS, shows tremendous benefits to immunity and health.
Conclusion
Did Dr. Terry Wahls stumble upon a healthy ketogenic diet that is also friendly to the gut, despite its lack of fermentable fiber? Will 9 cups of assorted 3-3-3 veggies be enough to provide the minerals and nutrients we need as humans? Has anyone read her book? How is she getting 90g of fiber without starchy plants? I'm not doubting that Wahls found a diet that worked...for her. I am doubting that the Wahls keto-Paleo protocol is the best diet to follow.
And why the warning on raw potato starch? Really.
Thoughts?
Later,
Tim
I recently purchased the organic potato starch you linked to. This after purchasing two Bob's red mill bags that had an awful taste. Most bags of Bob's Red Mill have tasted ok, but occasionally you get a really bad one.
ReplyDeleteI also got a bag of Bob's that had a funny taste. I've used the Anthony's organic and more from Bob, never found a bad bag again. I have been hoping and prodding supplement makers to produce a reliable, tested, line of starches labeled with RS content, mold, pesticides, etc. for use as a supplement.
DeleteI have gone through a lot of Bob's Red Mill and never had a bad one.
DeleteI had a few bags of bob's rps that tasted weird. It reminded me of tap water with a chlorinated flavor. I've been supplementing with rps for 1.5 years and it never tasted like that. I thought it was a bad batch.
DeleteI may go down to Bob's in Portland and see if they are making the potato starch there, or as I kind of suspect, getting it from a supplier in Germany I spoke to last year. As Tim knows, it's challenging getting a lot of info from Bob's about this. They are a great company, generally.
DeleteI eat pseudo-raw potatoes all the time now. I use one of those hand-held tuber slicers (kind of potato peeler?) and slice up a spud into a stir fry which usually includes ample RED MEAT (oh no you dident!) and free range eggs (bring on the Cholesterol brah)... but toward the end of the cooking so basically it's just heating up the potato. I really like the somewhat chewy, if not crunchy, texture it adds and I know I'm getting more Vitamin-C, RPS, etc. I'm not a big fan of "leafy greens". Don't like the taste much and I don't believe the "conventional wisdom" that they are all that healthy. There are lots of other ways to get prebiotic fibers in my diet - that is also more in line with my grains-and-tuber eating Germanic acestors.
DeleteEating undercooked potatoes is a great way to add them to a low(ish) carb diet.
Oh, snap! Mic drop.
DeleteBrad -
DeleteI think that's exactly right. There are several of us that posted today (you Gabriella, Tim, and me) that seem to have good guts and yet our diets are very different aside from the whole food aspect. I am convinced that there is no correct conventional wisdom. When a person rejects conventional wisdom and lets the second brain think for itself, then THAT PERSON develops a healthy diet for THAT PERSON. I can't understand why people project their diets as the one. There is no one diet.
Sorry, Wilbur - That's not what Nora Gedgaudas says! Tune in tomorrow.
DeleteCan't wait to read it tomorrow.
DeleteHey Tim I know this isn't taters but Natural Evolution in Australia do a green banana resistant starch that has RS content tested and listed on the bag. They also test for mold etc and publish their results. They've also tested other banana flour brands and found some pretty nasty results.
DeleteVery cool! Shows 9g of RS per 25g serving, so abut 40% RS, just as I would have predicted. A bit expensive! $27 (Australian) per pound.
Deletehttp://www.naturalevolutionfoods.com.au/order/green-banana-resistant-starch/green-banana-resistant-starch/
Their banana flour product has 30% RS, it's a bit cheaper. Made from cavendish. The RS product is from Lady Finger bananas.
DeleteI have read the Wahls' Protocol book. My opinion: the reason that all these new diets & versions of old diets report unprecedented healing of the body without conventional medical interference--Wahls, McDougall, vegetarian, vegan, raw-vegan, Mediteranean, Paleo, plant-based Paleo, Blue Zones, Longevity Villages, low-carb, etc--is the one thing, the one "rule", they all have in common, which is eating only whole foods, not eating processed foods. Outside of particular needs of some particular bodies (I've tried every way to eat gluten-grains including a recent foray into sourdough, but my body just won't tolerate it), we could all probably just adopt that one rule and live quite healthily and happily, and rarely if ever need the help of any type of medical practitioner.
ReplyDeleteWhen I'm looking for new recipes, especially to try different vegetables or cuts of meat I've not tried before, I go to all diet-areas for suggestions. I've found that the raw-vegans have some terrific soup & dessert recipes, and the low-carb people have some great meat recipes. I've enjoyed your, Tim, and Free the Animal blogs for potato and grain recipes--and for so much more, of course.
I agree, and my mantra for years has been to simply remove the refined sugar, oil, and grain from your diet and then tweak carefully. No need to remove all hint of natural sugars, oil, or whole grains.
DeleteI've read a good portion of her book. I completely missed any discussion of potato starch, so I can't speak to that.
ReplyDeleteIn her book, she emphasizes that she is not cured of MS. Many of her symptoms have reversed significantly, like from being in a wheelchair to riding a bike.
Moreover, she did a n=1 experiment. The diet she advocates is the one that benefits her. She does not know (at the time she wrote the book) whether it would benefit others. So she is conducting clinical trials to find out. I know in the case of eggs and I'm pretty sure in the case of grains that eliminating them is part of her protocol because SHE is allergic to them and eliminating them was a part of her diet. Because she wants to find out if HER diet reduces symptoms of MS she includes these as restrictions in her protocol for clinical trials and in her presentations.
I found that her book is remarkably consistent with my thinking. I eat eggs, but even she doubts they are really a problem in general. But she believes in the power of saturated fats, as do I. She is super strict, but I think that reflects the severity of her disease. I'm not sure I'd experiment too much if I had something that improved it as much.
I did not watch the video. Maybe she has become more dogmatic. But she did not seem so in the book.
I thought all along, too, that she was focused on MS treatment, but her warning that "potato starch is full of glyphosate" and that "potato starch users have high rates of C. diff, due to the glyphosate" was a bit over-the-top and pertains to everyone.
DeleteUnless her followers are truly eating organic, they are probably getting a ton more glyphosate from veggies.
That doesn't seem to make sense. The process of making the starch would seem to get rid of most of anything that might be there. I've certainly taken enough that if c diff were an issue I'd have it!
DeleteI own a hardcover first edition of her book. So forgettable I had to check in with my memory banks if I actually own it or if I read a borrowed copy. Nope. I just now picked it off my bookshelf.
ReplyDeleteI got pissed off reading the book because, knowing people with MS as I do, generally they don't have employees to go out and buy all this expensive organic produce, then chop it up for multiple meals per day and whatnot. The diet as presented is totally high maintenance and out of this world for the majority of disabled people who usually live on a limited income. That was my take away from the book. I'm surprised I didn't throw it into the recycle bin.
Don't get me started, yeah? Okay.
Her diet is not much different from Mark Sisson's Primal Blueprint, with the "big-ass salad". The main difference is that she is keeping it VLC/ketogenic with a high variety of plants.
DeleteI agree, it would be very hard to follow, but maybe her clinical studies will show some clues for the treatment of MS.
If it does, you can bet the keto-crowd will stand up and cheer: "See, keto is good for EVERYONE!"
I don't even remember her mentioning ketosis in the book, but that might be because I rolled my eyes whenever she mentioned Paleo. What I do remember her emphasizing, and what I think is right, is that it is important to eat a wide variety of vegetables, whole foods, and offal because the contain lots of micronutrients in their natural form. That is what I recall is her point of emphasis. But I will admit to the possibility of confirmation bias!
DeleteThe only thing about fiber that I see in her book is to take enough to have 2-3 good poops per day. She recommends chia and flaxseeds.
I read the most recent (5th?) edition of her book. She says that her understanding of the role of diet has changed with time and new research. I know she said her earlier editions called for limiting saturated fats, but she has come to learn that they are important for proper brain function and, hence, maybe for ameliorating MS. So maybe her videos do not reflect her current understanding or maybe the book doesn't.
Just noticed the video is more recent. The book seems very different. I was surprised by the limited discussion of the gut in the book. I remarked at the time to friend that she (in the book) probably has the proportion just right -emphasize the diet and the gut becomes secondary. Maybe she had a good editor.
DeleteWho wrote the book? Her or Adamson? Yanno? Anyway, based on my own experience of gut health, cooked vegetables are better. I wouldn't choose to eat raw kale and whatever else she recommends for breakfast! Her menu sucks big time. And it needs a personal kitchen person to do it all.
DeleteShe's a high income professional who can go all elitist bullshit. MS causes problems with GI motility so yes, some foods like eggs can be problematic. This certainly doesn't apply to healthy individuals. All this no dairy, no eggs, no this and no that is ridiculous.
My experience has lad me to a different diet that emphasizes raw vegetables. I very rarely cook vegetables that don't need to be, and if I do it's mainly for texture. I like raw kale, but I'll cook it and use it in lieu of pasta with tomato sauce.
DeleteI went back and looked at the book. She has three levels of diets. Basic, Paleo, and Paleo Plus. She doesn't even mention keto until Paleo Plus. I stopped reading at the basic diet, which is why I never saw it. I recommended it to a friend, but remarked the Paleo stuff was probably unnecessary.
I'm listening to her lecture. What's the big deal that hunter gatherers have a more diverse microbiome than developed world people? Who says that consumption of water contaminated by baboon feces is actually good for anyone? How much of the hunter gatherer microbiome is something that stays with the gut if regular ingestion of relatively exotic bacteria is not ongoing? Is this a competition? "I have more diverse bacteria than you! Nya Nya." Are we going to be Jonesing for who has more? LOL!
DeleteIt's like Tim's poop analysis that contained glacial bacteria species. What good do they do him and would they still be there after he spends 2 weeks in Hawaii?
We don't know enough about the gut microbiome to say anything for sure. And poop tests don't really provide valuable information unless they reveal the presence of pathogens that are making a person ill.
The woman is a physician: doesn't she know that correlation is not causation? All this rubbish about Alzheimer's disease risk increases with clean water. Yeah sure because only the tough survive all the diarrhoea and vomiting caused by dirty water. Sheeesh.
Based on her own focus on the gut microbiome, maybe it's the soil based micro-organisms she's been eating with her raw vegetables that have made the alleged difference.
And as Gemma would say 'what about the fungi?' These things live in balance or out of balance with the bacteria.
Gab: AMEN!
DeleteSorry no thoughts; just thanks. Thanks esp for the tl/dr...i'm dying to watch all the AHS presentations but it can only happen during my 1 year olds nap time!
ReplyDeleteThis is completely unrelated to your post. New paper!!
ReplyDeleteReformulating cereal bars: high resistant starch reduces in vitro digestibility but not in vivo glucose or insulin response; whey protein reduces glucose but disproportionately increases insulin
http://ajcn.nutrition.org/content/early/2016/08/31/ajcn.116.132431.abstract?abspop=1&related-urls=yes&legid=ajcn;ajcn.116.132431v1
Thanks! This fits right in with the RS discussions.
DeleteI am looking at the full text, and it's full of surprises! The abstract and discussion make it seem as if Hi-Maize corn starch (RS2) have no effect on blood glucose following a meal, increasing it above sugar, even.
"The lack of effect of RS on glycemic responses was unexpected."
But they offer a clue:
"...the glycemic impact of starch depends, among other things, on its degree of gelatinization and retrogradation. Moist heat (i.e., cooking) gelatinizes starch, making it more digestible (24) and increasing its glycemic impact (40). Retrogradation occurs when gelatinized starch is cooled and may lead to increased RS content and lower glycemic impact (24, 41). However, little is known about how cooking affects the glycemic impact of high-amylose corn starch. There is evidence in rats that cooking attenuates the postprandial insulin-lowering ability of high-amylose meals (42), but it is not known if this occurs in humans. On the other hand, there is evidence that undercooked conventional starch has a low glycemic impact, similar to that of undercooked high-amylose corn starch."
It would appear that the cereal bars tested had been cooked! Thus destroying the RS value in the high-RS bars.
The makers of Hi-Maize assure us that Hi-Maize can be cooked with, but I never believed it, and now am even more dubious.
The Hi-Maize folks have some 'splaining to do! Thanks for the link!
I just spoke with a couple people about this study...it looks like the problem was the sugars they used in the controls and intervention "bars." They did not standardize the carb counts based on glucose/fructose concentrations.
DeleteSeems her opinion has evolved indeed. From a recent podcast with Terry Wahls and Paul Jaminet:
ReplyDeletehttp://www.phoenixhelix.com/2015/06/06/episode-20-ketogenic-diets-with-terry-wahls-and-paul-jaminet/
Final Words of Wisdom (56:20)
Terry: “Hail to the Kale.” Include fiber and resistant starch in your diet through raw vegetables or cooked/reheated starches. We need to feed our microbiome as well as ourselves.
Hmm. A "smart" lady indeed. She says: "Even the Inuit go out of ketosis 2 months each year."
DeleteIt's almost as if she is saying, "I like RS, it's a great fiber. But I don't like raw potato starch, for some reason, so I will make a reason up."
DeleteIt's fine that people do not want to advise supplementing with anything, real food rulez!
But without supplementing, there is no way she is getting the 90g of fiber she claims to be getting without grains, tubers, or supplements.
There is also a Nora Gedgoudas video from AHS2016...she seems to be in love with the Inuit, still. I think I shall review that video next...lots of potato bashing in it, lol.
DeleteIf the carb-phobic crowd only knew about raw spuds. Thinly sliced and thrown into stir fry's at the last couple minutes. Awesome. Reminds me of al-dente spagetti, only much healthier. I wonder how many "net carbs" are being ingested from a large spud this way? I doubt it is much or that it spikes blood sugar much. I'm too lazy though and can't be bothered to do a blood sugar test.
DeleteI do the same thing. I wonder if there is a tool that would carve a potato into a long spaghetti strand? Must be.
DeleteYep, the "Spirilizer", advertized as "Spiralizer Tri-Blade Vegetable Slicer, Strongest-and-Heaviest Duty, Best Veggie Pasta & Spaghetti Maker". There are even cookbooks devoted to vegetables that have been spiralized(!):
DeleteThe Spiralizer:
https://www.amazon.com/Spiralizer-Tri-Blade-Vegetable-Strongest---Heaviest/dp/B00GRIR87M/ref=sr_1_1?s=kitchen&ie=UTF8&qid=1472767891&sr=1-1&keywords=spiralizer
A New York Times bestselling spiralizer cookbook:
https://www.amazon.com/Inspiralized-Vegetables-Healthy-Creative-Satisfying-ebook/dp/B00O02AMLQ/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1472768219&sr=1-1&keywords=spiralizer+cookbook#nav-subnav
Ordered! On sale now, regular $49.99, now $29.99...thanks!
DeleteI thought of the Spiralizer too. It's a great tool, and was thinking of spiralizing the raw potato and making spaghetti, just like with courgette.
DeleteJo tB
The lady has a blog http://inspiralized.com/blog/
Deleteand she has a second book out called: Inspiralize everything. Even better than her first book.
She concentrates more on vegetables, but I bet we can substitute raw spiralized potatoes for some of the vegetables she uses.
I suppose we could even contact her to think up some raw potato recipes to help us out.
Jo tB
Of interest re: potatoes and glyphospate:
ReplyDeletehttps://www.ag.ndsu.edu/potatoextension/copy2_of_4PotatoesandGlyphosateWhatdoweknow2.pdf
http://www.potatogrower.com/2013/06/be-aware
http://www.non-gmoreport.com/articles/may10/consequenceso_widespread_glyphosate_use.php
It would be interesting to see if anyone has done a study on the presence of glyphosate in RPS. I haven't been able to find one. It would be a relatively easy test to do, I imagine.
ReplyDeleteI could not find anything. All that you do find is warnings to potato farmers to keep glyphosate very far away from potatoes. I wonder why there are no GMO Round-up ready potatoes? Strange. If I thought that potato starch was somehow heavy with glyphosate, I would be the first to raise a red flag, and recommend only organic. But the truth is, starch production is a water-based process and all the bad stuff gets washed away, leaving just pure, unadulterated starch granules.
DeleteThe FDA tests all farm products for glyphosate residue and there are established limits. For grains, it's relatively high, for produce very low. I hate that it is so firmly established in our food supply, I have a feeling the whole story on gylphosate has not yet been told.
Are you supposed to keep the rps in the refrigerator or freezer? I don't, but I noticed that it's recommend on the products packaging
ReplyDeleteI've read Wahls (and of course tried Wahls' diet) and recommended her to a couple of MS friends. I actually outlined the book for them. They both responded to the third (and most difficult, ketogenic) level of her plan, but it was too hard for them to keep up for different reasons in their lives. Neither friend responded as completely as Wahls did. I think that MS will be found to have various defects which show up similarly, explaining why Wahls responded so completely and others do not. I've read in two different Facebook "forums" about many having success with her plan. I'm very glad that Wahls used her own case and her MD background to effect change and get some research going on nutrition in MS. I watched her TED talk several years ago, but I don't have time unfortunately to watch what you posted above to see how it compares. Her TED talk from a few years back was amazing. There was a little stir a little while back because something was put on the TED talk---I can't remember details---if it was some warning or what. It seemed like a little bit of censorship, which it did not deserve.
ReplyDeleteIt does seem like it would be hard, based on my reading of the book, to come up to 90 grams of fiber. Vegetables and fruits are great, but to hit 90 with just them would be really hard.
She does shun legumes, potatoes, and whole grains. And as much as I like the idea of adding them in, we can't ignore the fact that so many people just don't seem to do well with them, particularly in these autoimmune diseases. In something like HLA-B27 positive people with ank. spond., low carbohydrate diets do better by keeping Klebsiella low. That's an example I can think of where a person would feel better on a low carb diet. There may be others that we just haven't pegged yet.
From my reading, it **seems** like we need fermentable fiber. It **seems** like long-term ketosis would be detrimental for the gut. I searched for anecdotal clinical information on this on-line once, thinking that some of these physicians who use ketosis as treatment would be seeing negative long-term gut issues. I didn't see that. These doctors seemed to not be seeing that. Are they missing it? Maybe they just aren't reporting it? Did I miss the information? Or is it really not going to be an issue? (Which I find hard to believe, but I've been wrong before and followed the wrong camp.) Of course, on the other hand, many people do have gut issues, then resume the potatoes, grains, legumes, and then they start making progress again.
I personally liked her book. Thought it was approachable by having different tiers that people could choose from so it wasn't so intimidating. (She even allowed GF bread on the first tier.) She talked about more than just diet, too, which is very valuable.
If all this health stuff is approached with the idea that each expert has some wisdom to be picked up, yet not all of it will apply--I think most of us will benefit. From Terry Wahls I picked up to eat colorful, eat sulfur, get about 6-9 cups a day, get the family on board, consider ketosis and see where it gets you. From you I picked up so much about potatoes, RS, and fiber. I could go on with each group: the raw vegans, the very low carbers, the Paleo folks.
Looking forward to what you have posted next. Take good care and thanks for your postings.
I would definitely refer her book to anyone with MS to consider. I'm glad she is researching the topic, but kind of disappointed that it seems she is unbudgingly in the VLC, no grain/starch camp.
DeleteCheck. My take is to get control of a disease/issue, and then make little forays to see if you don't have to be so strict, you can add this, that, or if you have fair control, but want better, then try changing up this or that.
DeleteTerri F. - Not clinical data but Paul Jaminet on low carb and the Optimal
DeleteDiet: http://perfecthealthdiet.com/2010/11/dangers-of-zero-carb-diets-ii-mucus-deficiency-and-gastrointestinal-cancers/
Terry
DeleteI would not bother much with all those ketones...
From the podcast I linked yesterday: "Terry herself is conducting clinical trials into the effectiveness of the Wahls Paleo Plus diet on MS. Early results have surprised her: people benefit just as much from Wahls Paleo (the non-ketogenic version) as they do Wahls Paleo Plus (the ketogenic version of her diet)."
Thanks for linking that podcast, Gemma. Very interesting (and in transcript for for those that want to read it).
DeleteI guess this is what bugs me about the "keto crowd". When they give speeches and write blogs, they discuss keto like it is a perfectly fine dietary approach for every person. But, when specifically asked, you find it is really only intended for a very, very narrow audience, ie,:
Who Might Benefit from a Ketogenic Diet? (26:22)
Terry:
Any metastatic cancer.
Progressive neurodegenerative disorders, such as ALS.
Any other neurological condition that doesn’t respond to her regular Wahls Paleo diet. In this circumstance, she recommends intermittent ketosis (a few months in and a few months out). This is what she is now doing herself. Prior to this, she had been in ketosis for 2 solid years.
She recommends people look at their ethnic background, and how long their ancestors experienced winter. Experiment with ketosis for that length of time only, and if your ancestors didn’t experience winter, this might not be the diet for you. Even the Inuit go out of ketosis 2 months each year.
Paul:
Any neurological condition, such as NBIA, epilepsy, ALS, Parkinson’s, migraines, mental illness, and brain cancer.
Other forms of cancer during chemotherapy only, with the caveat that they should go out of ketosis once treatment is complete.
He believes a ketogenic diet is better as a diagnostic tool rather than a continuous treatment, and you might be able to transition to a less stringent protocol (like the regular Perfect Health Diet) and receive the same benefits.
Who Would You Warn Against a Ketogenic Diet?
Paul:
Everyone else.
He believes a ketogenic diet is more likely to cause autoimmune disease than cure it, due to the depletion of the mucus layer of the intestine, which puts bacteria directly into contact with immune cells. (Carbohydrates are necessary to maintain this protective mucus layer.) For example, there’s a theory that connects a bacterial infection with a low carb-diet and high mammalian meat consumption, leading to Hashimoto’s.
When Paul first went paleo, he experimented with a standard ketogenic diet, with no attention to nutrition. After 18 months, he actually developed scurvy, along with other health problems.
Terry:
She doesn’t recommend a ketogenic diet to be the first troubleshooting step for people with autoimmune disease (nor an elimination diet like the AIP for that matter). If people don’t see results on regular Wahls Paleo, she recommends functional medicine assessment. Her bias is to preserve as much diversity of food as possible, since nutrient deficiencies lead to disease.
However, she recommends everyone eat a low-glycemic diet.
All from: http://www.phoenixhelix.com/2015/06/06/episode-20-ketogenic-diets-with-terry-wahls-and-paul-jaminet/