tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6914086676454800973.post8843038065526033719..comments2023-10-29T01:46:00.188-08:00Comments on VeggiePharm: In Search of the Perfect Fiber (Part 1...quantity)Tim Steelehttp://www.blogger.com/profile/01611027687223434753noreply@blogger.comBlogger189125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6914086676454800973.post-17201309482643451902017-09-11T09:22:16.595-08:002017-09-11T09:22:16.595-08:00Chris Kresser has the same opinion as Konstantin. ...Chris Kresser has the same opinion as Konstantin. According to his book for GERD Chris said: fiber and GERD is a dangerous mix. <br /><br />Fashion Engineerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12802024056029528795noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6914086676454800973.post-53899381836639932962016-08-18T02:58:47.030-08:002016-08-18T02:58:47.030-08:00your artike is so helpfulyour artike is so helpfulcara menghilangkanhttp://www.penghilangjerawatku.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6914086676454800973.post-62945645518660289452015-02-17T08:19:07.265-09:002015-02-17T08:19:07.265-09:00Reading now...
Part 1 - Really good, I agree with...Reading now...<br /><br />Part 1 - Really good, I agree with all of it.<br />Part 2 - Really good breakdown of fiber types.<br />Part 3 - Strange that discussion turned to 'soluble vs. insoluble' here. In her part 2 she notes that the terms have little to do with fermentability.<br />Part 4 - Good discussion of cholesterol/fiber, but again, 'soluble vs. insoluble.'<br />Part 5 - OK, it all makes sense now. Good job!<br /><br />Here's my take on the series. Dr. Ballantyne is trying to right many wrongs, and did a really good job. After The Fiber Menace came out, many people started demonizing fiber, saying it 'scours the intestines' and other such nonsense. <br /><br />Dr. B's manifesto probably needs a couple more parts, I didn't see anywhere a recommended target for fiber consumption other than just to eat more fruit and veggies. My problem with this approach is that most salad veggies and fruits are not all that high in fiber (soluble/insoluble/fermentable/non). A 'big-ass salad' as the Paleo diet recommends is generally only about 10g of fiber (of all types), but mostly the non-fermentable type.<br /><br />I think it is great she tackled the myths of 'soluble vs. insoluble' and look forward to hearing more, like 'how much fiber do we need of both types' and 'which fibers produce the most SCFAs.' <br /><br />I think also she is trying to get people to see past the "fiber" found in the medicine aisle at Wal-Mart and think for themselves...something that I have been doing as well. The marketing behind "fiber" is strictly about selling powders that contain fiber but don't ferment to the point of causing a wayward fart to escape.<br /><br />I'll bet that Dr. Ballantyne would love this series and would be impressed by the unconventional fiber sources we are discovering here and taking alongside a fiber-rich diet.<br /><br />Thanks for sharing the Fiber Manifesto! <br /><br />Tim Tim Steelehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01611027687223434753noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6914086676454800973.post-22489101794042479632015-02-17T07:33:13.613-09:002015-02-17T07:33:13.613-09:00I read it not so much that one is better but that ...I read it not so much that one is better but that insoluble is good too. I believe that. It might do better in some jobs (not all). Stuart, you and I have both supplemented with cellulose and other insolubles, and we get them from whole foods, seeds, etc. I can't speak for Tim, but I've never avoided insoluble fiber. I don't see much conflict, but agree with Stuart on the dated feeling of the series. Wilburnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6914086676454800973.post-29107770130449844862015-02-17T07:04:15.264-09:002015-02-17T07:04:15.264-09:00@ Glenn
It's a bit muddled I'm afraid. Dr ...@ Glenn<br />It's a bit muddled I'm afraid. Dr Ballantyne correctly makes the point that 'soluble'' and 'insoluble' are just confusing the issue. The important distinction is whether a fiber is fermentable or not. But then she spends the entire five part series talking about soluble and insoluble fiber. The whole thing seemed a bit dated to me Do you know when it was written Glenn?<br />Also she seems to make it a kind of 'which is better' competition. If we know anything about fiber it;s that both fermentable and nonfermentable fiber - and the healthy microbiome that results from consuming vast quantities of both- are essential to optimal health. <br />This muddleheadedness aside, why do you think her 'approach' is different from Tim's?. Just curious, how would you describe Dr Ballantyne's fiber thesis anyway?. Or Tim Steele's for that matter? Maybe you've just missed the point she is trying to make. I for one seriously hope it is a bit more scholarly than suggesting that one is 'better' than the other - particularly when the distinction she draws between 'soluble' or 'insoluble' is irrelevant.<br />But the main impression I got from reading it was that it seemed dated. So much more is known now about microbiome health and the role both fermentable and non fermentable fiber play in achieving it. And it's quite possible that Dr Ballantyne is just better informed now. If she is she certainly wouldn't be talking about 'soluble' and 'insoluble' dietary fiber. She does indeed seem genuinely interested in the subject. Heck, she'd learn heaps by just keeping an eye on this blog.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04800363262194132506noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6914086676454800973.post-37522402940932666292015-02-17T05:39:46.996-09:002015-02-17T05:39:46.996-09:00For additional, and contrasting information on the...For additional, and contrasting information on the relationship of fiber to nutrition and health, please consider reading the 5 part series titled "The Fiber Manifesto" contained here: <br /><br />http://www.thepaleomom.com/?s=fiber<br /><br />Find the links and proceed through them beginning with "Part 1 of 5". This is quite a different point of view from that provided by Tim. I would love to hear from Tim on this other point of view, as I tend to lean more toward the "Manifesto" than his way of thought.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09029505433849887483noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6914086676454800973.post-75694979126705803952015-01-19T02:43:42.383-09:002015-01-19T02:43:42.383-09:00Gemma,
ThanksGemma,<br /><b> Thanks </b>Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04800363262194132506noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6914086676454800973.post-7220175758260940912015-01-18T13:22:58.943-09:002015-01-18T13:22:58.943-09:00Ahh. Yes the plot does indeed thicken.
I haven'...Ahh. Yes the plot does indeed thicken.<br />I haven't had a chance to properly read these, will review it all carefully in the next few days -- but once again, thank you! Maybe it's not just my imagination that the mix has some extra oomph to it. Andreanoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6914086676454800973.post-19046401139842852672015-01-18T06:42:43.664-09:002015-01-18T06:42:43.664-09:00@Stuart
Some HTML basics:
links: http://www.w3sc...@Stuart<br /><br />Some HTML basics: <br />links: http://www.w3schools.com/html/html_links.asp<br />bold: http://www.w3schools.com/tags/tag_b.asp<br /><br />You can use the tags directly when writing in the comment field.Gemmahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18051515271519007652noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6914086676454800973.post-19201124897195766512015-01-18T06:37:33.057-09:002015-01-18T06:37:33.057-09:00I think bees do cap some pollen (with wax) to stor...I think bees do cap some pollen (with wax) to store for winter when there is no chance to get pollen (bee bread as protein source). That is maybe the reason for the findings in the above mentioned papers - from the University of Arizona, experiment were run between November 2011 - October 2012. Is there ever any winter in Arizona?<br /><br />The bees mix the fresh pollen with some more nectar, I think, and that bit of honey. There are many papers on different nutritional composition of bee bread and corbicular pollen (bee bread is more acidic, there are more amino acids etc.), it also looks different, it is rehydrated. See:<br /><br /><a href="http://www.virtual.unal.edu.co/cursos/ciencias/2018415/und2/pdf/2nutritional_content.pdf" rel="nofollow">Nutritional content of fresh, bee-collected and stored pollen of Aloe greatheadii var. davyana (Asphodelaceae)</a><br /><br />I think some bits can fall out or nectar can leave the combs if an ignorant beekeeper does not know how to handle the frame :-)Gemmahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18051515271519007652noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6914086676454800973.post-74308923877792835992015-01-18T04:33:34.908-09:002015-01-18T04:33:34.908-09:00Gemma,
Don;t you think that if the bees did want t...Gemma,<br />Don;t you think that if the bees did want to just preserve pollen for later use they would indeed mix it with honey (a great preservative but not a good fermenter - unless it's diluted with water. Isn't that wing fanning evaporation thing they do to get the honey dry enough to not spoil AMAZING?) shove it in the wax honeycomb chambers and then cap the chamber with wax?<br />But they don't. They don't mix it with any honey, they mix it with bee spit - and wherever else the 'glandular secretions' come from, And then cap that chamber with a dab of honey. Do they also cap these pollen/spit chambers with wax after the dab of honey ? Or just the honey dab? Why isn't wax used do you think? The honeycombs are vertical, so why doesn't the honey dab just fall out? Sorry to pester you with questions. Maybe I need to ask a beekeeper. <br /><br />Here's an easy one. How do you make some word or string of words into a link ( the blue words) in a comment? Do you have to write the comment somewhere else and copy and paste it into the comment field? Or can it be done in the comment field on the go? Also for bolding. Sorry if this is obvious.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04800363262194132506noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6914086676454800973.post-28571130418352114392015-01-18T04:27:13.247-09:002015-01-18T04:27:13.247-09:00A better explanation of VBNCs:
Current Perspectiv...A better explanation of VBNCs:<br /><br /><a href="http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4116801/" rel="nofollow">Current Perspectives on Viable but Non-Culturable (VBNC) Pathogenic Bacteria</a> 2014<br /><br />The viable but non-culturable (VBNC) state is a unique survival strategy adopted by many bacteria in response to adverse environmental conditions. When the VBNC concept was proposed some 30 years ago, many issues related to its importance were raised, since there was no demarcation between dying cells and adaptive strategy made by the bacteria to cope with stressful conditions (1). The VBNC state of bacteria was previously referred as a dormancy state. However, several investigations showed that the difference between VBNC and dormant stages is based on their metabolic activity (reviewed in Ref. (1)). In VBNC state, the metabolic activity is measurable, whereas, in the dormant state, this activity shall remain below the detection levels. Extensive molecular studies over the years have resolved most of these issues and now VBNC has been accepted as a distinct survival state of bacteria (2, 3). The physiological consequence of VBNC/metabolically active but non-culturable (ABNC) state could be an adaptive effect that supports long-term survival under unfavorable conditions or an after effect of cellular deterioration, which conserves specific features of viable cells but results in a loss of culturability with available techniques. <b> This state can be thought of as an inactive form of life waiting for revival under suitable conditions.</b> In case of many medically important bacteria, this appears to happen spontaneously either when they are present in environments/foods or in the human body during the infection process. Although what triggers this is unknown, it is established that bacteria in VBNC state can resuscitate under “appropriate” conditions.<br />Gemmahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18051515271519007652noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6914086676454800973.post-50178977545291072242015-01-18T02:30:58.796-09:002015-01-18T02:30:58.796-09:00A random link on "viable but non-culturable s...A random link on "viable but non-culturable state":<br /><br /><a href="http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3438076/" rel="nofollow">Formation and characterization of non-growth states in Clostridium thermocellum: spores and L-forms</a><br /><br />"The term L-form is often used interchangeably with other terms such as CWD-forms (cell-wall-deficient), L-phase, L-variants, autoplasts, cysts, round bodies, spheroplasts, and protoplasts [20-22]. The metabolic activity of L-form bacteria has not been widely studied, but previous work has shown that metabolic activity for the L-form is often much lower than vegetative cells [23,24]. Generally L-forms can be recognized by a spherical or pleomorphic morphology which differs significantly from the morphology of the parent cells [25], but as the shape of L-forms can vary considerably, this definition is not universal. They are most frequently defined as cell forms that have a deficient or absent cell wall and retain the ability to divide [26]. The ability of L-forms to form colonies on nutrient rich plates [26] helps to differentiate them from <b>viable but non-culturable cells (VBNCs), </b>another non-growth state which is often induced by starvation or unpermissive growth temperatures and in some cases shares many similar features with L-forms [27]. L-forms are often classified in two categories, stable and unstable, which respectively refer to whether the L-form can revert back to the parent morphology or not [21]. Stressors that have been found to induce or promote the L-form morphology include treatment with β-lactam antibiotics with or without lysozyme[28,29], cultivation in minimal media or exposure to nutrient limitation [30-32], exposure to extreme heat [30] and exposure to high salt concentrations [33]."Gemmahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18051515271519007652noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6914086676454800973.post-67597392111649123742015-01-18T02:27:19.282-09:002015-01-18T02:27:19.282-09:00Even more "Ha!". The plot thickens even ...Even more "Ha!". The plot thickens even MORE!<br /><br />Another paper from the same group suggesting, among others, where and what the microbes responsible for beebread and honey properties are. Enjoy!<br /><br /><a href="http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3866269/" rel="nofollow">Microbial Ecology of the Hive and Pollination Landscape: Bacterial Associates from Floral Nectar, the Alimentary Tract and Stored Food of Honey Bees (Apis mellifera)</a> Dec 2014<br /><br />"Lactobacillus kunkeei and similar fructophiles (Fructobacillus spp.) are often undetectable in the crop or food stores, and their abundance in many bee species is sporadic, seemingly associated with flower type or season [26], [29], [33], [69], [72]–[74]. While highly suggestive of floral transmission or acquisition, <b>many species of bacteria are desiccation tolerant, with the ability to remain in suspended animation for long periods or enter into a viable but non-culturable state [75], [76].</b> Consistent with this hypothesis, L. kunkeei was among the small subset of bacteria revived from pure honey, the most desiccating of hive environments."Gemmahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18051515271519007652noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6914086676454800973.post-5003074928521057482015-01-17T16:27:56.910-09:002015-01-17T16:27:56.910-09:00Thanks Stuart, what you're making sounds like ...Thanks Stuart, what you're making sounds like a different beast altogether. <br /><br />So... I guess that my honey, water, pollen mix isn't anything other than dissolved pollen and honey. Perhaps there is little point in making another. It does seem potent, but perhaps that is just the nature of pollen. Hmm... <br />Andreanoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6914086676454800973.post-4994748014218436632015-01-17T08:52:08.660-09:002015-01-17T08:52:08.660-09:00@Stuart
The new information from 2014 paper is ma...@Stuart<br /><br />The new information from 2014 paper is mainly the finding that "bee bread baking" does not take weeks but only three days, no microbial action was confirmed, and it refutes the idea of "predigestion" or fermentation. But it does not say that bees prefer completely fresh pollen.<br /><br />The 2012 paper said when the bees eat more nutritious bee bread, they live longer.<br /><br />Link to that paper in the old comment of mine <a href="http://vegetablepharm.blogspot.com/2014/12/raw-potato-starch-great-prebiotic.html?showComment=1419773792105#c227452553314303030" rel="nofollow">here</a>.<br /><br />Yes, stingy Hadza :-)Gemmahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18051515271519007652noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6914086676454800973.post-14671670719762127302015-01-17T05:30:45.376-09:002015-01-17T05:30:45.376-09:00Terra,
Unfortunately I think most young women like...Terra,<br />Unfortunately I think most young women like the idea of having children, but would consider the prospect of breastfeeding for four years as horrifying. It's difficult enough now for women to have the career their abilities deserve and somehow find time to have children. Clearly it's going to need a VERY interventionist government to engineer the kind of societal policies which will ensure Mothers are encouraged to nurse their children for that long. One day hopefully 'doing the right thing by your children' will actually mean long breastfeeding. But I wouldn't hold your breath.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04800363262194132506noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6914086676454800973.post-1631213227733093982015-01-17T05:14:32.601-09:002015-01-17T05:14:32.601-09:00This comment has been removed by the author.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04800363262194132506noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6914086676454800973.post-33988233665545663412015-01-17T04:21:07.469-09:002015-01-17T04:21:07.469-09:00Gemma,,
This is really interesting. One of those f...Gemma,,<br />This is really interesting. One of those first studies you linked to was arguing that bees who tried to eat fresh pollen didn't do so well compared to eating the 'glandular secretions added and fermented bee bread. But what that first study also observed was that the microbial goings on from the addition of these glandular secretions had never been studied. And needed to be. I can't remember the name of the super dooper tough substance surrounding a pollen grain- sporopollenin was it?- that sailed through hundreds of thousands of years preserved in bogs I thought the idea of making the bee bread was to ensure that the bees digestive tract could get at the good stuff inside this shell. Didn't that study show that a far greater percentage of fresh pollen grains end up being expensive bee poop than bee breaded pollen grains?<br />Now this study says that bees prefer fresh pollen anyway. So is the first one not getting it right by finding that bees were healthier eating bee bread. You'd think they'd prefer to eat the healthier option. Although that certainly isn't the case with humans. So maybe bees just prefer the yummier stuff, but it doesn't nourish them as well.<br />Did anyone else see that short clip showing a Hadza youth deliberately burning honey rather than reward the honey guide bird, because it would continue to lead humans to the hives if it was starving. Why on earth didn't he just give the bird some of it? It had done half the work after all. Humans are so often SO disappointing.<br /><br />Andrea,<br />I don't use any honey. I put a thinly sliced raw potato (with dirt) in some water with a tspn of barley, 2 tbspns of oat bran, and a tspn of pollen grains, Barley seems to be a very fast fermentation starter. Maybe there's lots of L. plantarum in the husk After two days it's a bubbling mess, so it goes into that day's fiber smoothie. I've never tried longer, and shorter than two days it doesn't look or taste very fermented. I also don't want vodka.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04800363262194132506noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6914086676454800973.post-2619172915886453072015-01-16T14:59:47.863-09:002015-01-16T14:59:47.863-09:00@ Terra - great post!
When my children were small...@ Terra - great post!<br /><br />When my children were small, I remember a similarly intelligent and fired up mum summarising the extended nursing situation as such: "in our so-called modern society, we see a 3 year old drinking out of their parent's Coca Cola and think nothing. We see a 3 year old drinking from their mother's breast and are outraged. One is the perfect food, mind-body-gut preserving and healing. The other is trash." Once I heard that brilliant juxtaposition, it was easier to ignore those who scoffed. Stupid, vacant and not-right-in-the head indeed!<br /><br />Laurennoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6914086676454800973.post-50341989163115393812015-01-16T13:16:30.352-09:002015-01-16T13:16:30.352-09:00Ok, I will adjust what I've got by adding more...Ok, I will adjust what I've got by adding more in. Thanks!<br />Sounds like I need to get my hands on the real thing. Though I am still enjoying the concoction I've got. <br />Andreanoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6914086676454800973.post-70777102413487383122015-01-16T09:21:23.005-09:002015-01-16T09:21:23.005-09:00And this preserved pollen is not the preferred sou...And this preserved pollen is not the preferred source for the bees after a few days anyway. Go lick some flowers followed by a honey chaser :)Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6914086676454800973.post-80570687956322731412015-01-16T09:09:36.605-09:002015-01-16T09:09:36.605-09:00True! I was just thinking about home made bee bre...True! I was just thinking about home made bee bread and worrying that it was not 'fermented' properly. Mixing pollen and honey at home will not produce bee bread. Bee bread can only come from a hive, right? <br /><br />I've never seen real bee bread for sale in the US. Can't wait to try it from my own hive! <br /><br />Tim Steelehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01611027687223434753noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6914086676454800973.post-64086624217170171462015-01-16T08:57:30.908-09:002015-01-16T08:57:30.908-09:00Not so fast, Mr. Steele :-)
The bee bread contain...Not so fast, Mr. Steele :-)<br /><br />The bee bread contains some secretions from salivary glands and added nectar, which is definitely missing in the fresh pollen from the pollen traps.Gemmahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18051515271519007652noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6914086676454800973.post-51094088799675913082015-01-16T08:29:44.344-09:002015-01-16T08:29:44.344-09:00Nice! So maybe there is no advantage to buying be...Nice! So maybe there is no advantage to buying bee bread over pollen granules. I have never seen bee bread at a farmer's market, but always can find pollen. <br /><br />Making bee bread as you guys are doing is really just mixing honey and pollen. No fermentation takes place. The bees are just preserving the pollen by placing it in honey. <br /><br />So, I guess that means that there is little chance of 'not getting it right'. Just mix some pollen in a jar of honey, or, eat a spoonful of pollen and a spoonful of honey! Tim Steelehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01611027687223434753noreply@blogger.com