tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6914086676454800973.post3813708448260783658..comments2023-10-29T01:46:00.188-08:00Comments on VeggiePharm: Reflections on 2015Tim Steelehttp://www.blogger.com/profile/01611027687223434753noreply@blogger.comBlogger40125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6914086676454800973.post-78223759874837346472016-02-15T13:02:14.518-09:002016-02-15T13:02:14.518-09:00Thanks! It seems crazy to me and I would sooner h...Thanks! It seems crazy to me and I would sooner have a fecal matter transplant... But what do I know? Not much! Thanks again! Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6914086676454800973.post-54444176988427182482016-02-15T08:51:18.971-09:002016-02-15T08:51:18.971-09:00Having looked at the site, I'd be leery of tak...Having looked at the site, I'd be leery of taking this type of thing. Helminths are also a leading cause of stomach ulcers. I'm not convinced that just every will benefit from helminth therapy, just as everyone does not benefit the same from probiotics, prebiotics, and even food. Tim Steelehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01611027687223434753noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6914086676454800973.post-71114847195771811942016-02-14T12:51:42.704-09:002016-02-14T12:51:42.704-09:00I would be interested to know your thoughts on thi...I would be interested to know your thoughts on this science...<br /><br />https://biomerestoration.com/products/<br /><br />Thanks, <br />gina Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6914086676454800973.post-60081620723396030812016-01-14T15:59:50.078-09:002016-01-14T15:59:50.078-09:00It will be fun to keep an eye on all this as the s...It will be fun to keep an eye on all this as the science evolves.Tim Steelehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01611027687223434753noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6914086676454800973.post-31036284482449171132016-01-14T12:24:12.475-09:002016-01-14T12:24:12.475-09:00Ah it's disappointing as I got so excited abou...Ah it's disappointing as I got so excited about uBiome and its potential for a while but I agree with you that really it can only be used for a bit of fun. Hopefully in the not too distant future there will be something more reliable! Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13631839117052852303noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6914086676454800973.post-20533148601529606542016-01-07T05:20:58.993-09:002016-01-07T05:20:58.993-09:00Maybe not the right place to put it, but I've ...Maybe not the right place to put it, but I've come across 2 articles of great interest. I have the feeling that our microbiome is getting ever more attention in the scientific world.<br /><br />http://www.mirror.co.uk/lifestyle/health/your-gut-bacteria-could-help-7099978<br /><br />http://medicalxpress.com/news/2016-01-antibiotics-pave-diff-infections-bile.html<br /><br />Jo tBAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6914086676454800973.post-14829096359619096332016-01-01T19:21:55.232-09:002016-01-01T19:21:55.232-09:00Zogby Yes on the time scale. I misspoke. My gut ha...Zogby Yes on the time scale. I misspoke. My gut has been perfect for about a year. It has been really good for about two years. It still seems to get better and better. It's a long process. Keep your perspective. I've fixed problems I've had for over 30 years - in about two years. That's fast. <br /><br />Listen to Gabriella. I've gotten to listen to my gut, and it has bad things to say about cabbage and beans. Can't explain. But cabbage and potatoes sounds really good. In fact, it's a favorite with vinegar. <br /><br />Simple is awesome. I bought a package of shiitake mushrooms the other day, and sautéed those in butter with smoked salt. It was a fantastic lunch, and gut friendly to boot. It could have very easily gone into a quick miso broth. Wilburnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6914086676454800973.post-29882137210870934072016-01-01T15:20:43.648-09:002016-01-01T15:20:43.648-09:00zogby, beans and onion in soup with carrots, celer...zogby, beans and onion in soup with carrots, celery, okay. But don't add the cabbage. That's too much variety in the scope of insoluble fibre. <br /><br />Some things just don't mix all that well. You can make cabbage and beet borscht but no beans in it. For example. Or cabbage soup that contains potatoes.<br /><br />You need to look up traditional soup recipes because the old folks knew what they were doing. <br /><br />Sometimes soups made from only one main ingredient, like fresh green peas or green beans or mushrooms etc. are the best things to start with. Don't mix things up too much thinking that more is better when in fact it's not. <br /><br />I'm not sure here with Gemma (being Czech) but as a Hungarian, the soup traditions are usually quite simple. Partly from 'eating seasonally' but also because it just works better in the 'happy stomach' department. Any other vegetables added to the basic soup ingredient, be it peas or beans or whatever,are included to add some nuance of flavour and not as a major ingredient.<br /><br />You can't just throw the contents of the refrigerator and pantry into a big pot and end up with a good result (flavour or gut happiness wise). <br /><br />Cabbage soup is usually mixed with potatoes.<br /><br />There's all sorts of bizarre vegan combo recipes on the web, but these are recent inventions borrowing on old themes. Again, this quasi religious cult group are convince that if they make up something that looks like slops for pigs, it's healthy for humans. bahhh.Gabriella Kadarhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18294468426599703416noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6914086676454800973.post-1219644111418349562016-01-01T13:06:59.038-09:002016-01-01T13:06:59.038-09:00@Wilbur, that's actually really useful to know...@Wilbur, that's actually really useful to know that it took you a while (months) to adapt to a high-fiber diet. I do tend to try 'accelerated' experiments to get results faster, and perhaps that's caused problems. I'll try to move much slower, and be more patient, with this current experiment.<br /><br />As always, thanks all for sharing your thoughts!zogbynoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6914086676454800973.post-74634951810346521842016-01-01T12:09:15.299-09:002016-01-01T12:09:15.299-09:00That's an excellent point about evolution. An ...That's an excellent point about evolution. An important aspect of evolution is cumulative natural selection. A complex thing like a human eye does arise spontaneously. Instead it is the product of many small changes occurring over many generations. Diet simplicity and time together promote gut complexity through evolution. That's further suggestion that this is not a short term process. <br /><br />I think this answers a question I've had for a long time. Can I ever stop? I think the answer is no. I've created an environment that has evolved to provide what I need. If I stop, I'll likely starve out species that have functions special to me. <br /><br />I agree with Gemma about A. <br />Wilburnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6914086676454800973.post-31463704429643162242016-01-01T11:24:33.840-09:002016-01-01T11:24:33.840-09:00Zogby
My impression from what I've read of y...Zogby <br /><br />My impression from what I've read of your posts (I grant that it might not be accurate) is that you are jumping from extreme to extreme. My gut has been perfect for at least two years, and even I would not attempt two weeks of cabbage and bean soup. I wouldn't expect any problems, but I think it would suck and my gut would be screaming for more variety. For someone with your issues, I think the potato hack is extreme. <br /><br />I think too that you are expecting too much too soon. Fixing my gut took at least 15 months. I felt MUCH better within about 6 months, but there were foods that I could not eat and less frequent but still occasional diarrhea. I can now eat everything, and my stools are wonderfully consistent 100% of the time. <br /><br />A few days of this and a week of that won't, I think, matter much. <br /><br />What I did - and when I did it there was far less info - was continue to eat what I normally ate, but with every meal add something new that fed the gut. Really, this just amounted to making sure I ate my veggies with every meal. Then eventually I tried making veggies a higher percentage. At some point, I started my fiber mix, but by then things were working better. This was at least 6 months. <br /><br />I did go through periods of high gas. I slept in the basement for a while. It was occasionally painful. <br /><br />I recently saw some stuff about "contrabiotics." Plantains and broccoli have specially shaped sugars that prevent pathogens from attaching to the intestine. If I were starting over, I'd be eating a few raw broccoli florets and/or plantains (dehydrated chips, powder) with most meals. But just a little. View this as a long term project, with things working very slowly at the beginning but then exponentially faster as you progress. Wilburnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6914086676454800973.post-50089588898823364942016-01-01T10:56:38.474-09:002016-01-01T10:56:38.474-09:00zogby
I this A) is right "The non-fiber port...zogby<br /><br />I this A) is right "The non-fiber portion of the meal is relevant"<br /><br />But I admit I have forgotten what your issues are.Gemmahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18051515271519007652noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6914086676454800973.post-76670813744716953692016-01-01T10:56:20.988-09:002016-01-01T10:56:20.988-09:00We were talking with Dr. Ayers a couple weeks ago,...We were talking with Dr. Ayers a couple weeks ago, and he commented that simpler diets could lead to more diversity due to the evolutionary pathways that a simple, consistent diet would allow. Continually changing fiber types and then eating no fiber for periods of time, as the SAD diet provides, would lead to evolutionary dead-ends whereas a diet filled with consistent fiber types would allow bacteria to flourish and create new subspecies to fill every available niche.<br /><br />Presenting your gut with a wide array of fibers should be no problem as long as it's consistent. But a very diverse diet that changes daily would lead to a stunting of the microbiome. <br /><br />Oh, zogby - The potato starch gravy is cooked, don't forget, so almost zero RS. You could, however, sprinkle some on top after it has cooled, if you wanted to add back in some RS. A slice or two of raw potato as you are cooking is an even better way to get the RS, though. Tim Steelehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01611027687223434753noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6914086676454800973.post-9316484163549322752016-01-01T10:49:32.834-09:002016-01-01T10:49:32.834-09:00Oh, and @elliebelly -- I still eat a lot of stock,...Oh, and @elliebelly -- I still eat a lot of stock, and occasionally eat fermented veggies. As you might imagine, you can't continue to do everything you've ever tried, since you can only do/eat so much in a day!<br /><br />But I agree those two appear to be time-tested and reasonable to retain.zogbynoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6914086676454800973.post-13848043322915109962016-01-01T10:46:40.562-09:002016-01-01T10:46:40.562-09:00I think we're mainly in agreement in principle...I think we're mainly in agreement in principle -- I used 'simple' perhaps when I should say consistent (see my original comment).<br /><br />I tend to believe, as I believe you and Art do, that the gut will do best when it receives the same types, and perhaps amounts, of fiber every day, because the organization of the biome will optimize to handle that fiber.<br /><br />But the fact of the matter is that when I've tried any type of consistent fiber in previous experiments, either as whole foods (cabbage/bean/onion soup), or via a fiber mix (for example, RPS/psyllium/FOS), it has always ended up very badly for me within a few days.<br /><br />Why? Here are some possibilities:<br /><br />- The non-fiber portion of the meal is relevant, and I'm eating poor or not consistent enough choices.<br />- I really simply lack important gut species, or have unfortunately persistent pathogenic species. This would be a bummer.<br />- I didn't give it enough time, or I ramped up too quickly.<br /><br />In any event, I'm going to try to use the potato hack with a small amount of RPS (probably in chicken stock, as per one of Tim's alternatives in his latest post). And if I can tolerate that, ramp up the consistent fiber to higher amounts and more sources. I'd love to build up to being able to take a 'fiber-smoothie' every day. I think it's an elegant and simple way in the modern world to provide a consistent set of fibers for our gut.<br />zogbynoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6914086676454800973.post-45128525780149944162016-01-01T10:18:35.512-09:002016-01-01T10:18:35.512-09:00Zogby
I see things a bit differently. Ayers says...Zogby <br /><br />I see things a bit differently. Ayers says the SAD diet is complex. I think it's reasonable to infer that he thinks a diet of raw, unprocessed and fermented veggies is simple, because it promotes diversity. I see a difference between the complexity of the diet and the complexity of the foods that make it up. <br /><br />In Tim's potato hack, the diet is very simple. But the potato is a very complex food that goes far beyond the RPS it produces. <br /><br />The SAD diet is complex because there's no consistency in what the gut bugs eat, aside from perhaps the gut lining. The have to be generalists. <br /><br />A diet that includes just RPS as the sole source of gut food can be a complex diet in this view, especially if it is difficult to be consistent because of issues that arise. <br /><br />My fiber mix, I think, makes ,y diet simple. My gut bugs get nearly the same thing every day from my mix. It's a big part of my diet - 80% or so of my fiber intake. I am very consistent. It's a complex drink composed of about 20 powders. Wilburnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6914086676454800973.post-7540421315368194052016-01-01T09:46:25.312-09:002016-01-01T09:46:25.312-09:00Agreed! Pathogens are very hard to detect, even s...Agreed! Pathogens are very hard to detect, even seemingly simple ones like Lyme disease. It makes me cringe to see websites claiming to be able to fix your gut with a uBiome or Doctor's Data test.<br />I've been privy to several uBiome tests that showed high numbers of certain bacterial pathogens, but when asked, uBiome "re-examined" the report and could not find the pathogens any longer.<br />At least the science is getting better as more focus is placed on the importance of the gut biome. Tim Steelehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01611027687223434753noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6914086676454800973.post-590990053737834452016-01-01T05:19:48.396-09:002016-01-01T05:19:48.396-09:00Maybe rather than being a delayed effect, it is a ...Maybe rather than being a delayed effect, it is a cumulative one...try just a small amount and stay at that level for a few weeks. Then add another tiny ncrement for another few weeks.elliebellyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15647947387802335253noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6914086676454800973.post-26820318435902951462016-01-01T04:50:54.950-09:002016-01-01T04:50:54.950-09:00Zogby, As I am sure you have noticed, while just ...Zogby, As I am sure you have noticed, while just one of those things (RPS, simple diets, complex diets, bone broth, fermented veggies) by themselves have had almost miraculous benfits for some people, there are plenty like you who don't improve so easily. Clearly there is no one answer. <br /><br />But I would encourage you to not drop things like bone broth and fermented vegs (or just their brine). I suspect that there is a mix of things that, over time can help create the right conditions. Each person has to keep experimenting. And as long as something with time tested benefits is not causing harm, I would advocate keeping it n the mix. Art Ayers, by the way, is a huge proponent of fermented vegs. Go slow and in small increments and don't give up! Best wishes.elliebellyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15647947387802335253noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6914086676454800973.post-52285425654356944172016-01-01T04:34:51.924-09:002016-01-01T04:34:51.924-09:00Yeah, I've found that increasing fiber, for me...Yeah, I've found that increasing fiber, for me, has a delayed effect. I'll feel fine for a few days, and then worse after that -- particularly if I keep eating lots of fiber. This delayed effect makes it harder to figure out exactly what's going on.<br /><br />The best I've felt over the past few years was during fasting experiments. Maybe some of the benefit was just the reduced fiber intake.<br /><br />But it's nearly impossible to avoid fiber, and I tend to believe that a _healthy_, well-fed biome is better than simply avoiding fiber, in the long run. So I'm keen to fix the problem rather than merely avoid it.zogbynoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6914086676454800973.post-69105430230154551442016-01-01T04:23:41.479-09:002016-01-01T04:23:41.479-09:00@elliebelly, the motivation for a simple fiber sup...@elliebelly, the motivation for a simple fiber supplement (raw potato starch) was twofold:<br /><br />- A previous experiment I tried that involved more complex, real foods was a disaster. I ate a veggie soup composed of cabbage, pinto beans, garlic, stock and onions (all fresh and organic) for about 2 weeks straight, and ended up feeling as bad as I can remember. Terrible gut bloat, insomnia, and all-around feeling like garbage. Sure, it may have been too much, too fast.<br /><br />- Both Tim and Art Ayers have written articles that indicate simpler diets may, at least in some cases, lead to increased gut diversity. See:<br /><br />http://coolinginflammation.blogspot.com/2012/06/dr-oz-on-gut-flora-repair.html<br /><br />http://vegetablepharm.blogspot.com/2015/06/this-is-your-gut-on-potatoes.html<br /><br />It's a fair point that any processed food may be missing the important bits from the original, so maybe raw potato starch is incomplete. But it's also fair to say that RPS isn't a synthesized, isolated compound.<br /><br />Incidentally, I eat lots of broth and have done the fermented veggies thing for months at a time, and neither seems to do much for me.zogbynoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6914086676454800973.post-77964894204579761632016-01-01T03:46:24.174-09:002016-01-01T03:46:24.174-09:00Happy New Year! I hope you are feeling great! Ni...Happy New Year! I hope you are feeling great! Nice post, although I still think it's hard to catch pathogens even by culture. Thrive up there in Alaska!Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06876163878161971724noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6914086676454800973.post-69781039373199801472015-12-31T04:17:46.809-09:002015-12-31T04:17:46.809-09:00Happy fishing in 2016, Tim!Happy fishing in 2016, Tim!Gemmahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18051515271519007652noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6914086676454800973.post-39739593798895143182015-12-31T04:08:36.962-09:002015-12-31T04:08:36.962-09:00keep up the great work Tim,,all the best for 2016keep up the great work Tim,,all the best for 2016Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08710419341840969309noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6914086676454800973.post-23526298913898142162015-12-31T02:45:20.128-09:002015-12-31T02:45:20.128-09:00Congratulations Tim for your critical comments on ...Congratulations Tim for your critical comments on the commercial microbiome kit providers. They have to sell their product even though the only good side effect is raising interest towards real whole foods.<br /><br />The next step for whistle blowing could be companies offering SNP analysis (or even sequencing) and giving recommendations for your diet and exercise. Well, they have a niche as long as real biochemical laboratory testing is more expensive.<br /><br />My dream is a bathroom analyser. You pee, poop, spit and breathe (nothing invasive) and it gives you your daily recommendation for diet, exercise, stress reduction, sleep and social connection. Well, I will dream on and on the mean time listen to my body and a selection of metabolic testing.<br /><br />Productive new year!<br /><br />NooraAnonymousnoreply@blogger.com